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Weekly News #47 1.3 Follow up!

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Make taste option on food so you can always check for affinity.

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8 hours ago, Ostentatio said:

 

Greyfox is mad at people trying to help the community by figuring out what does what.


Not mad.  Annoyed.  Unlimited comes out and script kiddies filled the chats.   Destroyed the very little lore Wurm had.   Destroyed the entire learn by testing theme.  
As Reylaark said.

 

8 hours ago, Reylaark said:

I think it's more people who just don't, or can't, respect other people's desire to enjoy the exploration and discovery inherent in the process.

 


I for one am tired of WU script kiddies(Or whatever you want to be called) ruining WO for the rest of us by taking a short cut and reading the WU code.  And then telling everyone everywhere what they learned.  

Edited by Greyfox

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56 minutes ago, Greyfox said:

I for one am tired of WU script kiddies(Or whatever you want to be called) ruining WO for the rest of us by taking a short cut and reading the WU code.  And then telling everyone everywhere what they learned.  

 

I'm more than tired of being kept in the dark by the devs and then discovering that something that was widely accepted is totally false.

Reading through the code is basicly the closer we have to a user manual or proper wiki. Allow whoever want to check something to actually know how it works.

Forcing information on people is bad of course and if you want to be ignorant you should be able to. That IKEA furniture will look better for sure without half the parts.

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I'm all for people posting info and It is easy to choose not to read it... Oh look they saying recipes... let me scroll past this section... done.... 

 

I also dont think ANYONE coding into WU ruined the game for me i still learn and do everything by trial.... and when mclovin does 10 hours of testing on shields i might be back to read how it went (prolly not) but i'll listen to anything he says from his own testing and consider it when doing my own testing which will be much longer and extensive but still enjoy hearing the feedback from everyone. I also like to hear the people who break code and want to give their opinions which sometimes help and sometimes dont but it never ruins the fun. for me. Wurm is always changing :) 

 

Did you guys see in the patch updates coming soon there will be Elephants? Rideable Elephants? Wow.....

 

I didn't, but i would love for us to have Elephants.

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Greyfox making it seem like someones got a gun to his head forcing him to read the spoilers. 

 

Is it really that hard to scroll past it if you see a spoiler? If people don't post it in a spoiler, or try and ruin it by pm'ing you,  report them.

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2 minutes ago, Budzilla said:

Greyfox making it seem like someones got a gun to his head forcing him to read the spoilers. 

 

Is it really that hard to scroll past it if you see a spoiler? If people don't post it in a spoiler, or try and ruin it by pm'ing you,  report them.


Nah, not talking about people who want to take the short cut but keep the spoilers to themselves, or in a way you can browse past them.  
I'm talking about the script kiddies that, after WU came out, had to flood every chat with what they found.  I get that some people want the short and easy route, and that's fine. If that's how you want to play, go buy WU and read code rather than actually play.  If that's what you want to do, go ahead and do it.  
The real problem here is WU.  It gave the people who wanted a shortcut the option, and some of them had to ruin the experiment aspect for the rest of us.

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Greyfox basically saying he can walk past a person selling something cause he isn't interested; 

but the people who come right up to you; LOOK WHAT I GOT, LOOK AT THIS; HEY I FOUND SOMETHING

up in your face/spamming chat, like, nobody cares, say it once and thats all. 

Edited by Mclovin
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I have no idea why Greyfox is so upset but I hope he keeps posting.

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Opinions are like certain anatomical parts.   They're nice to have and be proud of.  I'll respect your opinions and I hope you respect mine. But no one likes it when they're shoved in our faces and you're basically saying, 'Here take this and like it.'

 

All we ask, is that we're given the respect to share our info just as we give you the respect not to read it.

 

Anyways, i'm done, if it comes down to someone whining cause we're sharing info, or putting it in charts, spreadsheets or whatever to share info ( which BTW are in dozens of posts on these forums and in wiki already )  then yeah something is seriously F'ed up about this game.

 

 

Edited by Stormblade

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3 hours ago, Odynn said:

 

I'm more than tired of being kept in the dark by the devs and then discovering that something that was widely accepted is totally false.

Reading through the code is basicly the closer we have to a user manual or proper wiki. Allow whoever want to check something to actually know how it works.

Forcing information on people is bad of course and if you want to be ignorant you should be able to. That IKEA furniture will look better for sure without half the parts.

 

I agree, and that's why I put a significant amount of effort into the documentation for cooking.  If you find errors or omissions in there, let me know.

For anyone who missed it in the original patch notes, you can find a load of info here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PhEhJkjNy-jl3_L5mdaQRVzyfdS7MfAt8_iNwSaHYYE/

 

It is my hope that I'll be able to produce something similar for other new features going forward.

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49 minutes ago, Pandalet said:

I agree, and that's why I put a significant amount of effort into the documentation for cooking.  If you find errors or omissions in there, let me know.

 

This is indeed a nice change than the complete blind guessing, begging for scrap of infos to get started.

 

Bees,on the other hand, do not seems to be willing to migrate sadly, without knowing the precise mechanisms (and your cook book is a nice help) we can't and won't know if it's broken, working as intended ... or totally wogic.

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3 hours ago, Odynn said:

 

This is indeed a nice change than the complete blind guessing, begging for scrap of infos to get started.

 

Bees,on the other hand, do not seems to be willing to migrate sadly, without knowing the precise mechanisms (and your cook book is a nice help) we can't and won't know if it's broken, working as intended ... or totally wogic.

 

 

On the bees... yes, this so much. Deathclock on fountain pans is at 23days now, I traveled allot (90km ingame and counting) yet still didnt find a wild beehive, seeing they slowly produce 0.1wax at a time, I dont see a solution in 23days to seal of 20+ small barrels and 20+small amphoras with wax before the fountain pans go poof. (they already have been prolonged in timer to make people gather enough wax, but with hardly any wild beehive around (on inde for me) it doesnt really give any hope in sealing them before the timer runs out).

 

Especially since we are moving fast towards wurm-autumn, which would decrease spawn/migration even more to fully dissapear with winter...

Edited by Lycanthropic

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8 hours ago, Greyfox said:

 I get that some people want the short and easy route, and that's fine. If that's how you want to play, go buy WU and read code rather than actually play.  If that's what you want to do, go ahead and do it.  
The real problem here is WU.  It gave the people who wanted a shortcut the option, and some of them had to ruin the experiment aspect for the rest of us.

 

That's just being efficient, not a shortcut.

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10 hours ago, Odynn said:

Bees,on the other hand, do not seems to be willing to migrate sadly, without knowing the precise mechanisms (and your cook book is a nice help) we can't and won't know if it's broken, working as intended ... or totally wogic.

 

we had bees migrate, make sure domestic hive is higher ql than the wild, dunno if it matters but I imped ours pretty high and the highest ql one migrated fastest

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The favor from chopped Veges is really low, I thought it was going to be the same as the old normal veges?

11 or 12 x 97QL chopped veges for a strongwall (70 favor) it used to be just over 7 normal veges.

 

 

Edited by Omar

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On 11/25/2016 at 10:27 PM, Greyfox said:


Not mad.  Annoyed.  Unlimited comes out and script kiddies filled the chats.   Destroyed the very little lore Wurm had.   Destroyed the entire learn by testing theme.  
As Reylaark said.

 


I for one am tired of WU script kiddies(Or whatever you want to be called) ruining WO for the rest of us by taking a short cut and reading the WU code.  And then telling everyone everywhere what they learned.  

 

I don't think you know what "script kiddie" or "lore" mean.

 

I apologize for trying to inform people about stuff, though. I guess if you want to remain ignorant of things, that's your choice, and far be it from me or anyone else to take it from you.

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1 hour ago, Ostentatio said:

 

I don't think you know what "script kiddie" or "lore" mean.

 

I apologize for trying to inform people about stuff, though. I guess if you want to remain ignorant of things, that's your choice, and far be it from me or anyone else to take it from you.

I know the slang definition of script kiddie.  A couple of people where nice enough to share it in this thread.   I'm still using the term script kiddies on purpose.  
People like you took the discovery aspect away from WO by taking the easy route and reading the WU code and then force feeding what you found to everyone in every chat.  What you are not understanding is that some people like to play games, and discover how those games work through playing them.  Script kiddies like you took that away from us when you guys filled every chat with what you found from WU code.  

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24 minutes ago, Greyfox said:

I know the slang definition of script kiddie.  A couple of people where nice enough to share it in this thread.   I'm still using the term script kiddies on purpose.  
People like you took the discovery aspect away from WO by taking the easy route and reading the WU code and then force feeding what you found to everyone in every chat.  What you are not understanding is that some people like to play games, and discover how those games work through playing them.  Script kiddies like you took that away from us when you guys filled every chat with what you found from WU code.  

 

  1. Wurm Online's features are not very consistent, even when they work as intended. Player discovery was, as a result, riddled with lots of misguided falsehoods and half-truths. Player discovery works great in a game where the mechanics are organic, discoverable, and intuitive; in Wurm Online, they're often none of those things, so it just doesn't work very well. Just saying, people had several years before WU's release to figure stuff out, and still a lot of the available information turned out to be misleading or straight-up wrong. It's worth noting that the developers themselves are trying to be more transparent about how new features work, presumably in order to avoid this sort of mess.
  2. I can't speak for anyone else, but part of why I look into this stuff is to help the community. Access to better information helps everyone. If you don't want it, you don't have to read it. On that note, finding bugs is also helpful, wouldn't you think so?
  3. If the developers didn't want people to be able to do this, and wanted to heavily enforce player discovery as the only way to learn about game mechanics... then it's entirely their fault for releasing essentially the entire codebase to the public in a form that is fairly easily decompiled. They could have obfuscated the code more, but they didn't. That's their decision, not mine.
  4. People are going to look into the code for stuff, whether they keep it to themselves or share it. All you do by getting mad about it or avoiding it is putting yourself at an intentional disadvantage. I don't like it when people figure stuff out through the code and try to keep it to themselves in order to prevent bugs being fixed or otherwise give themselves some unfair advantage, so when I learn something, I tend to share it, because I feel like everyone should have access to that information.
  5. What am I supposed to do, pretend I don't know things? If I can help people out by answering questions or giving them better information, I will. I'm sorry you don't see it that way.
  6. There's still tons of stuff to discover. Maybe "how basic mechanics work, and what is or isn't horribly broken" just shouldn't be one of them.
Edited by Ostentatio
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Settle down comic-book-guy.  You could always take your own advice though, and remove chat, forums and any human interaction from your life. I'm pretty certain everyone here wouldn't notice.

 

Let me rephrase for you :
 

Quote


I do not know the definition of script kiddie, but use random catch phrases like this to discuss my anger. A couple people posted logical responses i ignored. I'm still using silly phrases i dont understand.  
People like you took Wurm's "logic" to bat, to better understand it's mechanics, and shared it with the greater community to close old held myths and incorrect assumptions.  What you are not understanding is that some people like to play blind and discover nothing tangible along the way. You took away my empty game play by posting things i go and search for, to be angered deliberately,  and make no attempt to avoid spoilers or interaction that would ruin my own game play experience.

 

 

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21 hours ago, Ostentatio said:

 

  1. Wurm Online's features are not very consistent, even when they work as intended. Player discovery was, as a result, riddled with lots of misguided falsehoods and half-truths. Player discovery works great in a game where the mechanics are organic, discoverable, and intuitive; in Wurm Online, they're often none of those things, so it just doesn't work very well. Just saying, people had several years before WU's release to figure stuff out, and still a lot of the available information turned out to be misleading or straight-up wrong. It's worth noting that the developers themselves are trying to be more transparent about how new features work, presumably in order to avoid this sort of mess.
  2. I can't speak for anyone else, but part of why I look into this stuff is to help the community. Access to better information helps everyone. If you don't want it, you don't have to read it. On that note, finding bugs is also helpful, wouldn't you think so?
  3. If the developers didn't want people to be able to do this, and wanted to heavily enforce player discovery as the only way to learn about game mechanics... then it's entirely their fault for releasing essentially the entire codebase to the public in a form that is fairly easily decompiled. They could have obfuscated the code more, but they didn't. That's their decision, not mine.
  4. People are going to look into the code for stuff, whether they keep it to themselves or share it. All you do by getting mad about it or avoiding it is putting yourself at an intentional disadvantage. I don't like it when people figure stuff out through the code and try to keep it to themselves in order to prevent bugs being fixed or otherwise give themselves some unfair advantage, so when I learn something, I tend to share it, because I feel like everyone should have access to that information.
  5. What am I supposed to do, pretend I don't know things? If I can help people out by answering questions or giving them better information, I will. I'm sorry you don't see it that way.
  6. There's still tons of stuff to discover. Maybe "how basic mechanics work, and what is or isn't horribly broken" just shouldn't be one of them.

1.  we had several years of gameplay.  several years of testing old myths and debunking or confirming them.  We had several years of playing Wurm and learning by playing without needing some newbies reading the code and telling us what we where doing wrong.
2. You named yourself "show off"  I have a hard time believing you read the WU code and the forced it down everyones throat in every chat to help the community.   I suspect you did it just to show how smart you are.
3. Not sure the devs expected a bunch of script kiddies to take the lazy route and read WU code and then bring that to WO.   But yes, in hindsite WU was a bad idea.
4. This is an argument that wouldn't exist without WU.   Without WU you script kiddies would not have had the option to read code in the first place.
5.  Again, an argument based on the existence of WU.   I suppose you could have shown some self restraint and not taken the easy way.  But even if you had not read the WU code, some other script kiddie would have taken that route anyway.
6.  That sounds like you trying to be a dev.

In conclusion, WU is mostly to blame.  You thought you where doing good by reading the code and then shouting in every chat about what you found.   I can understand that you thought you where helping.   But in the end, having script kiddies with access to the code ruined a good junk of Wurm.
And yes, I'm going to keep calling you guys script kiddies just because it seems to bother you.

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1 hour ago, Greyfox said:

1.  we had several years of gameplay.  several years of testing old myths and debunking or confirming them.  We had several years of playing Wurm and learning by playing without needing some newbies reading the code and telling us what we where doing wrong.
2. You named yourself "show off"  I have a hard time believing you read the WU code and the forced it down everyones throat in every chat to help the community.   I suspect you did it just to show how smart you are.
3. Not sure the devs expected a bunch of script kiddies to take the lazy route and read WU code and then bring that to WO.   But yes, in hindsite WU was a bad idea.
4. This is an argument that wouldn't exist without WU.   Without WU you script kiddies would not have had the option to read code in the first place.
5.  Again, an argument based on the existence of WU.   I suppose you could have shown some self restraint and not taken the easy way.  But even if you had not read the WU code, some other script kiddie would have taken that route anyway.
6.  That sounds like you trying to be a dev.

In conclusion, WU is mostly to blame.  You thought you where doing good by reading the code and then shouting in every chat about what you found.   I can understand that you thought you where helping.   But in the end, having script kiddies with access to the code ruined a good junk of Wurm.
And yes, I'm going to keep calling you guys script kiddies just because it seems to bother you.

 

  1. I'm sorry you were wrong about things. The thing is, only perfect practice makes perfect, and it's not like Wurm Online had a bunch of well-paid researchers going through the thing and accumulating and analyzing statistical data; we were just playing a game. I'm not saying I'm any better in any way; I subscribed to a lot of conventional wisdom I now know to be incorrect, just like the rest of us did. The difference is that once better information comes along, I accept it.
  2. My in-game name was a silly joke name I came up with on the spot and means basically nothing about me except that I like stupid name puns. I have an alt named "Discountalfredo", if you'd like to analyze that as well. Honestly, though, I cannot prove my motivations to you, so I won't try very hard, but consider the fact that when I find out about something that's exploitable, abusive, or might advantage me in some way I actually report it instead of keeping it to myself. I'm not going to call myself some paragon of virtue, but I'm not some kind of selfish egomaniac either. I'm just a big ol' nerd who likes to poke into things and figure them out... seriously. That's it. I'm a big nerd. That's my secret.
  3. Of course they expected people to read the code and figure things out from it. One of the first questions to come up about WU was mod support, which requires code editing, and they declined to obfuscate the code in any way like they almost certainly have in Wurm Online. They could have very easily stopped us from doing this in Wurm Unlimited, possibly at the cost of any mod support whatsoever, but they elected not to. The developers, being developers, knew that the code could be decompiled and that people would be poking at it. There's no way they couldn't have.
  4. Yes?
  5. It's not about "self-restraint". Hell, I've put a significant amount of work into some of this. Do you really think "the easy way out" when I was looking into cedar containers was "do three different tests spanning several days to compile and interpret a body of data in order to prove a thing I'm already 99% sure is true, and which will probably be removed in the near future anyway"? No, the easy way out would be for me to do literally anything else with my time. The other easy way out would be to keep as much information as possible to myself, for my own benefit, but I don't want to be that guy. I know that guy. I talk to those guys. Good on them for figuring things out for themselves, but I don't think it's terribly fair to be cagey about it.
  6. No, that's me being a critic. Like I said, player discovery works fine under certain conditions, and I feel the reason player discovery has brought us down so many wrong avenues in Wurm Online is because those conditions, historically speaking, have not been met, not to mention all the stuff we wouldn't have known at all without that code, like the origins of certain bugs, or that some things should have been possible but weren't (or vice versa).

But yeah, Wurm Unlimited is certainly to blame for people being able to look at Wurm Unlimited's code. I mean, that's how that works. I also definitely understand the appeal of player discovery, but it led us to Soul Depth panfilling, inbreeding myths based on the game misrepresenting horse parentage, and a bunch of other wacky inconsistencies and other nonsense that players were not able to "discovery" even after several years.

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19 minutes ago, Ostentatio said:

 

  1. I'm sorry you were wrong about things. The thing is, only perfect practice makes perfect, and it's not like Wurm Online had a bunch of well-paid researchers going through the thing and accumulating and analyzing statistical data; we were just playing a game. I'm not saying I'm any better in any way; I subscribed to a lot of conventional wisdom I now know to be incorrect, just like the rest of us did. The difference is that once better information comes along, I accept it.
  2. My in-game name was a silly joke name I came up with on the spot and means basically nothing about me except that I like stupid name puns. I have an alt named "Discountalfredo", if you'd like to analyze that as well. Honestly, though, I cannot prove my motivations to you, so I won't try very hard, but consider the fact that when I find out about something that's exploitable, abusive, or might advantage me in some way I actually report it instead of keeping it to myself. I'm not going to call myself some paragon of virtue, but I'm not some kind of selfish egomaniac either. I'm just a big ol' nerd who likes to poke into things and figure them out... seriously. That's it. I'm a big nerd. That's my secret.
  3. Of course they expected people to read the code and figure things out from it. One of the first questions to come up about WU was mod support, which requires code editing, and they declined to obfuscate the code in any way like they almost certainly have in Wurm Online. They could have very easily stopped us from doing this in Wurm Unlimited, possibly at the cost of any mod support whatsoever, but they elected not to. The developers, being developers, knew that the code could be decompiled and that people would be poking at it. There's no way they couldn't have.
  4. Yes?
  5. It's not about "self-restraint". Hell, I've put a significant amount of work into some of this. Do you really think "the easy way out" when I was looking into cedar containers was "do three different tests spanning several days to compile and interpret a body of data in order to prove a thing I'm already 99% sure is true, and which will probably be removed in the near future anyway"? No, the easy way out would be for me to do literally anything else with my time. The other easy way out would be to keep as much information as possible to myself, for my own benefit, but I don't want to be that guy. I know that guy. I talk to those guys. Good on them for figuring things out for themselves, but I don't think it's terribly fair to be cagey about it.
  6. No, that's me being a critic. Like I said, player discovery works fine under certain conditions, and I feel the reason player discovery has brought us down so many wrong avenues in Wurm Online is because those conditions, historically speaking, have not been met, not to mention all the stuff we wouldn't have known at all without that code, like the origins of certain bugs, or that some things should have been possible but weren't (or vice versa).

But yeah, Wurm Unlimited is certainly to blame for people being able to look at Wurm Unlimited's code. I mean, that's how that works. I also definitely understand the appeal of player discovery, but it led us to Soul Depth panfilling, inbreeding myths based on the game misrepresenting horse parentage, and a bunch of other wacky inconsistencies and other nonsense that players were not able to "discovery" even after several years.


1.  Umm, really?  Read over that again and try to decide what you are trying to say.  You contradict yourself in that post.
2.  You're name may have been a joke.  But that just belittles yourself since you live up to the joke then.  Always trying to show off.   But this isn't about you.   This is about your claim of trying to help the community, I've never seen you do that.   I've seen you belittle the community based on what you found in WU code, never seen you actually help anyone.
3. You can read minds now?
4. Is that agreement?
5. You tested something in game, good for you.  You actually did in game testing.   You actually played Wurm and tested how things actually work in game rather than resorting to reading code.  This is a positive step.
6.  Still sounding like you're trying to be a dev.

And everything after 6, you really sound like you're trying to be a dev.

Learn to relax and play a game without needing the code to play it.  You can play, and enjoy a game, without reading the code behind it.   Try it sometime.  Games are really more fun when you don't already know all the answers.

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12 minutes ago, Greyfox said:

Life is more fun when you don't already know all the answers. Now, I will go through everything you said point-by-point and correct your answers.

 

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