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For the attention of the Devs (Metallurgy Test Results)

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1 hour ago, rixk said:

Not really. You can choose if you want higher ql(walnut), or if you want more resources(oak). If anything, there should be more of these kind of choices. As I have already said, it is not the game, that is broken here, it is the "I want all" mindset, that is at fault here.

 

Nope, the only thing at fault here is your blatant attempts at trolling.  Retro, several coal-makers, highly skilled metallurgy toons and anyone with half of a brain can easily see a problem.  You are choosing to disagree for mere entertainment value because you have zero knowledge, experience or logical reason to dictate otherwise other than to get a rise out of other players.

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A bit more data as promised, also a bit of review for those new to the thread.  First off I have 94.6 coal making and I don't have a huge problem with the current mechanics.  On the whole I'm happy with the ql of coal I get from the mats I use.  While some tweaking could certainly be in order, in my view the devs have higher priority items to work on.  Having said that, I do support about an additional 5% increase to pile ql if it is easy to implement--maybe a bit more at lower levels.  I'd be thrilled if for example we could attach 1 bonus log to the pile after it is created to further improve pile ql--think I will suggest that actually.

 

Now for the data part, sort of.  I've been trying to make 82ql piles (to make 90 coal with the 10% walnut bonus) and maybe 1 in 10 if I'm lucky.  This is with using about 95ql mats as well.  They tend to end up about 79 to 80ql piles.  Close to 90 coal, but not quite there yet.  Will have to take coal making up to 97 I suspect to reliably get 82ql piles from top ql mats--50% of time would be nice anyway.  I've got about 3000 logs rotting away to less than 5 ql and got another 3000 on order, looking forward to getting them into piles and hitting 97.  If you got sub 5ql logs you want to drop off and donate to the cause (in return for a gift of some coal or ash or course), feel free to stop by some time.

 

For those who are not familiar with coal-making, it is an extremely labor intensive process and if the goal is making coin, just do mortar.  It is a 5 step process for myself, though if you don't mind skipping replanting, 3 steps:

1. Pick a sprout;

2. Cut the tree;

3. Plant the sprout;

4. Cut the logs;

5. Make the pile.

 

So get out there and make those piles!

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14 minutes ago, GoldFever said:

A bit more data as promised, also a bit of review for those new to the thread.  First off I have 94.6 coal making and I don't have a huge problem with the current mechanics.  On the whole I'm happy with the ql of coal I get from the mats I use.  While some tweaking could certainly be in order, in my view the devs have higher priority items to work on.  Having said that, I do support about an additional 5% increase to pile ql if it is easy to implement--maybe a bit more at lower levels.  I'd be thrilled if for example we could attach 1 bonus log to the pile after it is created to further improve pile ql--think I will suggest that actually.

 

Now for the data part, sort of.  I've been trying to make 82ql piles (to make 90 coal with the 10% walnut bonus) and maybe 1 in 10 if I'm lucky.  This is with using about 95ql mats as well.  They tend to end up about 79 to 80ql piles.  Close to 90 coal, but not quite there yet.  Will have to take coal making up to 97 I suspect to reliably get 82ql piles from top ql mats--50% of time would be nice anyway.  I've got about 3000 logs rotting away to less than 5 ql and got another 3000 on order, looking forward to getting them into piles and hitting 97.  If you got sub 5ql logs you want to drop off and donate to the cause (in return for a gift of some coal or ash or course), feel free to stop by some time.

 

For those who are not familiar with coal-making, it is an extremely labor intensive process and if the goal is making coin, just do mortar.  It is a 5 step process for myself, though if you don't mind skipping replanting, 3 steps:

1. Pick a sprout;

2. Cut the tree;

3. Plant the sprout;

4. Cut the logs;

5. Make the pile.

 

So get out there and make those piles!

 

I'm confused,whats the actual point of this and wheres the actual data for this topic..

You get 1/10 piles to 90ql(with walnut) IF you LUCKY.

You gonna grind to 97 coal making congratz to  you..

You give advice on how to grind the skill good for you,i agree with it,thats what i did.

Oh,i forgot,you use the thread to ask people for free goods.

 

/me is very confused.

Edited by Jonydowy

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19 minutes ago, GoldFever said:

A bit more data as promised, also a bit of review for those new to the thread.  First off I have 94.6 coal making and I don't have a huge problem with the current mechanics.  On the whole I'm happy with the ql of coal I get from the mats I use.  While some tweaking could certainly be in order, in my view the devs have higher priority items to work on.  Having said that, I do support about an additional 5% increase to pile ql if it is easy to implement--maybe a bit more at lower levels.  I'd be thrilled if for example we could attach 1 bonus log to the pile after it is created to further improve pile ql--think I will suggest that actually.

 

Now for the data part, sort of.  I've been trying to make 82ql piles (to make 90 coal with the 10% walnut bonus) and maybe 1 in 10 if I'm lucky.  This is with using about 95ql mats as well.  They tend to end up about 79 to 80ql piles.  Close to 90 coal, but not quite there yet.  Will have to take coal making up to 97 I suspect to reliably get 82ql piles from top ql mats--50% of time would be nice anyway.  I've got about 3000 logs rotting away to less than 5 ql and got another 3000 on order, looking forward to getting them into piles and hitting 97.  If you got sub 5ql logs you want to drop off and donate to the cause (in return for a gift of some coal or ash or course), feel free to stop by some time.

 

For those who are not familiar with coal-making, it is an extremely labor intensive process and if the goal is making coin, just do mortar.  It is a 5 step process for myself, though if you don't mind skipping replanting, 3 steps:

1. Pick a sprout;

2. Cut the tree;

3. Plant the sprout;

4. Cut the logs;

5. Make the pile.

 

So get out there and make those piles!

 

I am also unsure on the point being made here, If anything you are just emphasizing how broken the skill is, You have to get 97 coal making, 95+ WC and 95+ Digging and even then you have to rely on the 10% bonus to get 1 pile producing 90ql charc out of 10 piles made.

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36 minutes ago, Jonydowy said:

 

I'm confused,whats the actual point of this and wheres the actual data for this topic..

You get 1/10 piles to 90ql(with walnut) IF you LUCKY.

You gonna grind to 97 coal making congratz to  you..

You give advice on how to grind the skill good for you,i agree with it,thats what i did.

Oh,i forgot,you use the thread to ask people for free goods.

 

/me is very confused.

 

I will clarify the points:

 

Point 1. I don't see coal making as a huge problem;

Point 2. It can be tweaked if devs have spare time on their hands and I have suggested some tweaks.  Even made a thread on that along with another idea in suggestions;

Point 3. It is very hard to make 90 ql coal, hard enough that sure, a small tweak is in order;

Point 4. I can get really close though, probably close enough that it doesn't really matter (granted, this point was more implied than anything);

Point 5. Happy to take low ql logs and will give you ash and coal in return (not free, trade);

Point 6. This is no get rich quick scheme as it is a lot of work.  If silver is your objective, go make mortar.

 

Hopefully I have explained it better now.

 

Edited by GoldFever
Better wording

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Spoiler

dZaNVYC.jpg

 

This how folk see skilling up and in some cases how the results actually are.   

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When attaching parts to an item under construction, the QL increase is determined by a skillcheck with the item's difficulty and the activated item as a tool, divided by the total number of components.  Since coal piles are 15 difficulty, a character with 70 skill and all QL70 components will get an average coal pile of ~QL57.  At 90 skill and QL90 components, the average coal pile QL becomes ~QL74.  At 99 skill and QL99 (!) components, the average coal pile is only ~QL79.25.

 

The "problem" with coal piles is that their final QL is determined by about two dozen skill checks, and as I mentioned in my previous post, even absolutely optimal conditions with high skills, high QLs, and easy actions won't net phenomenal results.

 

I'm not sure how you could fix this without dramatically altering Wurm's advanced creation system or coalmaking as a skill.  Dropping the difficulty of a coal pile from 15 to 1 would allow a coalmaker with 90 skill and QL90 components to average QL80 piles, but the skill itself would become even more difficult to raise to high levels due to a lack of difficult actions.  I suppose all creation actions could be changed so that multi-part constructions come out at higher QL, but that would affect every single item that has more than 2 components.

 

Things like this make me wish the game didn't discard >100 rolls, and would just cap the result instead.  While there'd be vastly more max-QL resources all across the game, it would make all things with mass item creation suck a lot less.

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1 hour ago, Noizhead said:

When attaching parts to an item under construction, the QL increase is determined by a skillcheck with the item's difficulty and the activated item as a tool, divided by the total number of components.  Since coal piles are 15 difficulty, a character with 70 skill and all QL70 components will get an average coal pile of ~QL57.  At 90 skill and QL90 components, the average coal pile QL becomes ~QL74.  At 99 skill and QL99 (!) components, the average coal pile is only ~QL79.25.

 

The "problem" with coal piles is that their final QL is determined by about two dozen skill checks, and as I mentioned in my previous post, even absolutely optimal conditions with high skills, high QLs, and easy actions won't net phenomenal results.

 

I'm not sure how you could fix this without dramatically altering Wurm's advanced creation system or coalmaking as a skill.  Dropping the difficulty of a coal pile from 15 to 1 would allow a coalmaker with 90 skill and QL90 components to average QL80 piles, but the skill itself would become even more difficult to raise to high levels due to a lack of difficult actions.  I suppose all creation actions could be changed so that multi-part constructions come out at higher QL, but that would affect every single item that has more than 2 components.

 

Things like this make me wish the game didn't discard >100 rolls, and would just cap the result instead.  While there'd be vastly more max-QL resources all across the game, it would make all things with mass item creation suck a lot less.

 

Appreciate this.  Is there a formula you are using for these numbers or is this simulation?  Also, if the number of components in a coal pile was reduced to say 5 (so only 5 skill checks) what would the average ql of coal piles come out to be compared to the 23 skill checks that have to take place now?  Would have to also reduce the amount of coal per pile of course.  Thanks

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After reading through this thread the thing I take away is that people are complaining about the difficulty of a skill that at high end required many other high end skills to give high end results right?  To play devils advocate I will point out that this fact remains true for the life of a steelsmith and at 58 coal making myself I can using 70ql mats hit 50+ql piles frequently and with walnut logs get 61-62ql coal maybe 1 pile in 7.  My metallurgy is only about 47 but I can use that 50-62ql coal to maintain a villages worth of spare plate at 70ql and everyday plate at 80+ql with access to 90+iron.  Now  perhaps my living on Chaos alters my perceptions but this is a grindy game anyway and my results do not seem unreasonable to me.  Is the purpose behind the people pushing this thread to secure an easier way to make money off actions in game?

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1 hour ago, GoldFever said:

 

Appreciate this.  Is there a formula you are using for these numbers or is this simulation?  Also, if the number of components in a coal pile was reduced to say 5 (so only 5 skill checks) what would the average ql of coal piles come out to be compared to the 23 skill checks that have to take place now?  Would have to also reduce the amount of coal per pile of course.  Thanks

 

I'm using a simulation, but it runs server code.

 

If coal piles had a reduced number of components, average pile QLs would remain the same, but the reduced number of checks would make individual piles' final QL more affected by the streakiness of random number generation.  The resulting piles would have a slightly more volatile QL, with more 'low' and more 'high'.

 

A quick batch for fun:

ten piles made at 90 skill and with QL90 parts, with 24 components:  lowest pile was 71.42, highest was 78.75, average was 74.93

ten piles made at 90 skill and with QL90 parts, but with 5 components:  lowest pile was 66.0, highest was 82.8, average was 74.52

 

I guess you'd wind up with more dramatic "bad" and "good" results if coal piles had fewer parts, but your overall output wouldn't change much.

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5 hours ago, Noizhead said:

Things like this make me wish the game didn't discard >100 rolls, and would just cap the result instead.  While there'd be vastly more max-QL resources all across the game, it would make all things with mass item creation suck a lot less.

 

A potential compromise here could be to still reroll the result, but skew that reroll significantly higher than the original roll by adding a bonus, reducing difficulty, or whatever else would be necessary. That way, you get more consistently high results without all the top-quality exactly-100.0000000 rolls that are presumably the concern.

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18 hours ago, Noizhead said:

When attaching parts to an item under construction, the QL increase is determined by a skillcheck with the item's difficulty and the activated item as a tool, divided by the total number of components.  Since coal piles are 15 difficulty, a character with 70 skill and all QL70 components will get an average coal pile of ~QL57.  At 90 skill and QL90 components, the average coal pile QL becomes ~QL74.  At 99 skill and QL99 (!) components, the average coal pile is only ~QL79.25.

 

The "problem" with coal piles is that their final QL is determined by about two dozen skill checks, and as I mentioned in my previous post, even absolutely optimal conditions with high skills, high QLs, and easy actions won't net phenomenal results.

 

I'm not sure how you could fix this without dramatically altering Wurm's advanced creation system or coalmaking as a skill.  Dropping the difficulty of a coal pile from 15 to 1 would allow a coalmaker with 90 skill and QL90 components to average QL80 piles, but the skill itself would become even more difficult to raise to high levels due to a lack of difficult actions.  I suppose all creation actions could be changed so that multi-part constructions come out at higher QL, but that would affect every single item that has more than 2 components.

 

Things like this make me wish the game didn't discard >100 rolls, and would just cap the result instead.  While there'd be vastly more max-QL resources all across the game, it would make all things with mass item creation suck a lot less.

 

If I understand this correctly, the benefit of skilling up is reduced the higher one goes.  If you have the time, it would be very interesting to see the results from say 90 ql mats at 50, 70 and 99 skill to compare to the average pile QL74 you found earlier at 90 skill.  Much appreciated.

 

Looks to me like coal making results for up to say 70 skill are likely just fine but some tweaking is needed on the high end.  5% or so (including the walnut bonus or 15% without it) still sounds about right to me to make it work "correctly" but seems like the change is small enough would it make any practical difference?

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7 minutes ago, GoldFever said:

 

If I understand this correctly, the benefit of skilling up is reduced the higher one goes.  If you have the time, it would be very interesting to see the results from say 90 ql mats at 50, 70 and 99 skill to compare to the average pile QL74 you found earlier at 90 skill.  Much appreciated.

 

Looks to me like coal making results for up to say 70 skill are likely just fine but some tweaking is needed on the high end.  5% or so (including the walnut bonus or 15% without it) still sounds about right to me to make it work "correctly" but seems like the change is small enough would it make any practical difference?

 

Yeah, that's easy enough.

 

50 skill, QL90 tool, 15 difficulty:  average roll is ~57

70 skill, QL90 tool, 15 difficulty:  average roll is ~70

90 skill, QL90 tool, 15 difficulty:  average roll is ~74

99 skill, QL90 tool, 15 difficulty:  average roll is ~76.5

 

Every skill gets results like this (like in my first post with the super-miner), but I suppose coalmaking stands out because you are stuck with the object's creation QL; unlike a freshly-assembled forge or ship, you can't improve coal piles up to a desireable QL.

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Why not make coal piles impable? That solves the creation QL problem, and makes grinding the skill easier without clearcutting half the server and melting the GPU of anyone in visual range :P

 

I mean sure, existing high coal makers will probably riot, but meh.

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52 minutes ago, Noizhead said:

 

Yeah, that's easy enough.

 

50 skill, QL90 tool, 15 difficulty:  average roll is ~57

70 skill, QL90 tool, 15 difficulty:  average roll is ~70

90 skill, QL90 tool, 15 difficulty:  average roll is ~74

99 skill, QL90 tool, 15 difficulty:  average roll is ~76.5

 

Every skill gets results like this (like in my first post with the super-miner), but I suppose coalmaking stands out because you are stuck with the object's creation QL; unlike a freshly-assembled forge or ship, you can't improve coal piles up to a desireable QL.

 

Thank you for this, however, there is an anomaly in the results. A jump of 20 skill gave a 4 increase in average roll, but then a further jump in skill of 9 gives a 2.5 increase in average roll.  In other words the graph of average roll increase vs. skill increase gets lower and lower it seems till suddenly right at the end it slopes upwards again. Weird.

 

Looking at the results it seems a bit overpowered on the low skill side and under powered on the high skill side.  I support the results on the low skill side since that encourages people to participate.  The 70 skill "feels" about right to me but after that, it is just a joke for coal piles anyway.  This was partly addressed by the walnut 10% bonus that has greater effect at high ql's than low ql's but a better solution is to just fix the curve. Maybe the curve makes sense for items you can imp so you don't get too high a creation quality level (what would it matter?), but it makes no sense for an item you can't imp.  I'd like to see the 90 skill coming in at about 86 and the 99 skill at about 89 with 90 ql mats and 92 with 95ql mats and about 94 with 99ql mats.  At these levels, the walnut bonus could be eliminated.  I have no idea how to make that happen though.

 

Final thought (for now) is that taking the walnut bonus into account, a modest increase in the bonus to 15% from 10% does seem to more or less hit these target levels in coal ql.  Can't say I like it, but it would obviously be very easy to implement.

 

 

27 minutes ago, bdew said:

Why not make coal piles impable? That solves the creation QL problem, and makes grinding the skill easier without clearcutting half the server and melting the GPU of anyone in visual range :P

 

I mean sure, existing high coal makers will probably riot, but meh.

 

This existing high skilled coal maker would not riot, but it is not my preferred solution as that makes it harder to make high ql coal compared to fixing the creation ql curve since you would have to imp the pile as opposed to just creating it.  Just get the creation ql right to start with seems a lot better.  Nevertheless, it would work.

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3 hours ago, GoldFever said:

 

Thank you for this, however, there is an anomaly in the results. A jump of 20 skill gave a 4 increase in average roll, but then a further jump in skill of 9 gives a 2.5 increase in average roll.  In other words the graph of average roll increase vs. skill increase gets lower and lower it seems till suddenly right at the end it slopes upwards again. Weird.

 

Looking at the results it seems a bit overpowered on the low skill side and under powered on the high skill side.  I support the results on the low skill side since that encourages people to participate.  The 70 skill "feels" about right to me but after that, it is just a joke for coal piles anyway.  This was partly addressed by the walnut 10% bonus that has greater effect at high ql's than low ql's but a better solution is to just fix the curve. Maybe the curve makes sense for items you can imp so you don't get too high a creation quality level (what would it matter?), but it makes no sense for an item you can't imp.  I'd like to see the 90 skill coming in at about 86 and the 99 skill at about 89 with 90 ql mats and 92 with 95ql mats and about 94 with 99ql mats.  At these levels, the walnut bonus could be eliminated.  I have no idea how to make that happen though.

 

The "anomaly" is due to how the game generates your rolls:  the purpose of effective skill (determined by actual skill, tool QL, and all the other factors) and difficulty is to determine the mean of a normal curve to generate random numbers with, and that is usually as simple as "effective skill - difficulty = your average roll".  It breaks down and gets weird at either extreme of skill, both due to how the game determines effective skill and how rolls lower than -100 and higher than 100 are discarded.  If the numbers in Wurm went higher than 100, then you would see something like a 99 coalmaker with QL90 tools making piles come out at ~QL79.5, since his effective ~94.5 skill would be reduced by the coal pile's 15 difficulty.

 

The end result of all this is that extremely high skill doesn't help as much as you'd think it would, especially when you consider how long it takes to grind to the highest levels, and are only doing relatively "easy" actions.  When the actions have a higher difficulty, the benefits of very high skill are more apparent.  Examples:

 

90 skill, QL90 tool, 15 difficulty:  average roll is ~74

99 skill, QL90 tool, 15 difficulty:  average roll is ~76.4

average roll went up by ~2.4

 

90 skill, QL90 tool, 50 difficulty:  average roll is ~48

99 skill, QL90 tool, 50 difficulty:  average roll is ~53.5

average roll went up by ~5.5

 

Maybe coalmaking's problem is that it only has one thing to make with it, and that thing is only 15 difficulty.  I can't really imagine just what the new thing at higher difficulty might be, but if it was some sort of "advanced" thing that only master coalmakers could do (and was worth maximizing QLs on), it might make the skill suck less.  This is getting into the realm of bandaids and quick fixes, though, and I think I'd rather see the random number generation reworked so it doesn't feel like you're being punished for grinding a skill so high.

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imo, the solution I'd choose is to change coal making so it follows Wurm's crafting standard output quality curving.

Concerning the "skillCheck" method in WU's code that seems to be used all over the place:

1. log is difficultly and tool quality.

2. charcoal making is skill,

3. The weighted average of all output powers returned from the skillCheck method of each attach action is the final quality of the pile.

4. Maybe add bonuses (the bonus arg in in skillCheck which is normally skill/10) for woodcutting and digging skills because folks with these skills would better understand the wood and dirt used in piles.

 

It might be necessary to revisit wood difficulties. Imo, they are really low and it's one reason it's so hard to skill up woodcutting past 70.

With this setup it would be possible for a 70 skill toon using 70 ql resources to occupationally see a 70ql pile.

 

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Bump,not to start the discutions all over again,but i feel like  this has to be on top for a while imo.

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Bump, To stop this fading into obscurity like so many others.

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