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Remove karma porting to a deed thats under attack for 8 hours

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I will say it again, If you can not ride up to defend a deed by either boat or horse because it is not safe then you should not be about to karma in.

People might complain about how far a deed is to have to defend. It might take to long to ride to the deed by horse. If you want  to defend your kingdoms deed it should not be to far to ride not mater what.

I have only used karma twice in this game and I regret it both times because to me it was a waste. because then i was stuck at that deed and not at my own deed I had no horse. 

 

I was never with Karma and I see no reason for it. Yes to get you dead body but even with that, what are the chances on Chaos that it is not already looted. 

 

Eva

- Speaking for herself, for what I think not for MR or for JK - 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, EvaDaly said:

I will say it again, If you can not ride up to defend a deed by either boat or horse because it is not safe then you should not be about to karma in.

People might complain about how far a deed is to have to defend. It might take to long to ride to the deed by horse. If you want  to defend your kingdoms deed it should not be to far to ride not mater what.

I have only used karma twice in this game and I regret it both times because to me it was a waste. because then i was stuck at that deed and not at my own deed I had no horse. 

 

I was never with Karma and I see no reason for it. Yes to get you dead body but even with that, what are the chances on Chaos that it is not already looted. 

 

Eva

- Speaking for herself, for what I think not for MR or for JK - 

 

 

 

I really agree with this.

 

Mainly because I don't think sitting at a gatehouse is PvP, and because i also think people that find that entertaining have ever attempted anything else. Plus this just outright encourages certain deed placements.

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51 minutes ago, Propheteer said:

 

I really agree with this.

 

Mainly because I don't think sitting at a gatehouse is PvP, and because i also think people that find that entertaining have ever attempted anything else. Plus this just outright encourages certain deed placements.

But not everyone agrees with how you feel pvp should be as well. Sitting at a gatehop may not be fun but neither is being slaughterd because of the many other imbalances the game offers. And the extream lack of giving reasons for a defender to actually put their lives on the line.

 

As for MR, honestly although i find some of these suggestions completely 1 sided, the main gist of this topic is that the ability to immediately being able to teleport upon switching villages is more game breaking then it is providing pvp. No real arguement can be made that teleporting in the conditions listed above will provide more pvp then riding to defend your deed.  BUT at the same time there has to also be a fine line somewhere. For deeds that are primary residences members should not be restricted in being able to teleport from being out on a hunting trip to defend their holding. If that means making a 1 month timer being the requirement thats fine with me as long as it does not remove the ability to defend your deed when enemys have a spy in your kingdom and know you are all out on a hunt and they block your ability to teleport for 8 hours 5 years so they can metagame to win.

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Retro also spit some fire back and said why things wouldn't work with excellent detail to the reason.

Retro if you read this, would be good to have a catch up with the kingdoms so we can speak about whats being done, whats to come and what expectations are/changes we'd like to see faster - in ts so atleast it doesn't come across as trolly on the Fourms :]

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I made this suggestion several years ago as it was stupid then and stupid now. Karma teleporting wasn't all that bad when Karma was actually difficult to get hold of (missions) but source fountain harvesting ruined the whole Karma mechanic, it's now another pay2win feature. Regardless of this, you still have meditation ability to recall home.

 

I have always been for 24 hour delay after joining a village after before teleporting will work.

 

One of the perks for removing the feature encourages better kingdom game play by forcing you to consider infrastructure before you try and take land. It means you'll less likely hold land you can not hold (this is called balance) because of this it leaves openings for new kingdoms to try and fit into these gaps. When it comes to defending it you have two options - get onto deed using your back door, or take the enemy in an open skirmish, the latter means you also have to consider this when building the deed to ensure you have protection around the outskirts of the deed so you can fight in open skirmishes.

 

Removing the ability makes farwalker twigs/stones the next go-to thing, but it's sort of balanced due to how expensive gets as you can only set a twig to 1 deed. It's a P2W feature but quite a heavy one if you want to teleport large people in for an outpost when the group can leave. Do you commit 20s worth of twigs to defend your 5s deed ? are the resources worth it?

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I think the arguments for the cooldown are literally the only logical arguments in this thread. It makes sense that if you can deal with it and have the infrastructure and it MR members have time and time again said they have that for all their deeds. So why should they need karma porting that they keep arguing for? I know in JK we do have all that infrastructure for our deeds and I could easily live without karma porting. I will tell you the two reasons we use it still 1. It's impossible to prevent the enemy from stopping you from getting into the deed which means it's incredibly safe and 2. It's quick. You could be literally anywhere on the server and be ready to teleport in and defend. There is no counter play to stop this and any mechanic with a lack of counter play is terrible game design and should be fixed.

 

I will tell you one karma porting doesn't do and that is promote pvp. It just allows deeds to be scattered over the map, hundreds of tiles from anything, maybe even surrounded 360 degrees by enemy and still allow you to get inside them to defend. And how you could claim pvp comes from it when you are safely inside a deed which has gatehops, a dirt wall, minehops, reinforced mines and so on beats me. Pvp comes from people not being inside a safe structure and on the outside. The only way you will force this is by making someone ride into a deed and take a risk which brings opportunities for traps and counter traps hence pvp.

 

This idea doesn't stop you from coming back to defend your village which you live at. It is fair and prevents you from defending a deed which you don't live at and is far from your home deed. If you argue you want to get to a deed to defend it and still want to live at your deed that is on the opposite side of the map then tough. You either live in your deed and run to the action or move to where it is happening.

Edited by bloodmaster
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If you want to balance how about 5k rather than 1k to a deed under attack, and per the OP its once a prem alt pops local?  How about the Templars need to be killed before it comes into effect.  Then if you want to goal to be 'make the enemy have to come through trapped areas and such how about starting with a 2 hour no karma port option and trial that.  That would still allow you time to do damage and set up your position if the goal is to promote actual sword vs sword fighting.  Bottom line is playing the KvK game defending even if its just repairing a wall being shot down is still pvp.  And attacking even if its just catapulting an enemy deed is too.  Just because you want to limit the definition of pvp to actual swords crossed on the battlefield doesn't mean that's the only way the game can/should be played.

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3 minutes ago, Dalvin said:

If you want to balance how about 5k rather than 1k to a deed under attack, and per the OP its once a prem alt pops local?  How about the Templars need to be killed before it comes into effect.  Then if you want to goal to be 'make the enemy have to come through trapped areas and such how about starting with a 2 hour no karma port option and trial that.  That would still allow you time to do damage and set up your position if the goal is to promote actual sword vs sword fighting.  Bottom line is playing the KvK game defending even if its just repairing a wall being shot down is still pvp.  And attacking even if its just catapulting an enemy deed is too.  Just because you want to limit the definition of pvp to actual swords crossed on the battlefield doesn't mean that's the only way the game can/should be played.

The devs were already looking into karma porting as it was a heavily talked about topic that pvpers discussed with Retro. I feel it's not the direction Rolf wanted Wurm to go when he removed suiciding to allied deeds years back. And I feel now it's probably not the direction it should stay as with karma being so readily available it is so cheap to do it and better than the old system as you can take your gear and not lose skills. I don't think the majority of games would class shooting a wall and repairing a wall as pvp and in my definition I would say it wasn't. Or at least if you claim it is, no one agrees that sitting there shooting a catapult or looking at a wall is the exciting part of pvp would they? So look at the karma cooldown as encouraging the more fun parts of pvp with hand to hand combat rather than sieging a deed for hours. And we all know 2 hours is very little in the grand scheme of raids, with an 8 hour trial it would make more sense as that is nearly one person's whole day playing. I would even argue 8 hours is a little short but that's not the suggestion on hand.  

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I'm hearing no logical reasons against the proposed changes of this thread. 

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Karma porting puts players in the same local.

 

Look at it this way, you can either deal with a main karma porting to the deed to defend with the possibility of some pvp.

 

Or you can deal with a premmed toon with only masonry at every war deed who literally only builds/repairs, and you can have 0 chance of pvp.

 

Take your pick.

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5 minutes ago, TradingAlt said:

Karma porting puts players in the same local.

 

Look at it this way, you can either deal with a main karma porting to the deed to defend with the possibility of some pvp.

 

Or you can deal with a premmed toon with only masonry at every war deed who literally only builds/repairs, and you can have 0 chance of pvp.

 

Take your pick.

So does forcing people to come defend a deed that's being raided, the only difference is karma porting puts them in one of the safest places in local, the middle of a deed with defenses. It doesn't really form any pvp as the defenders stay inside a deed repairing away until the attackers get bored of a lack of pvp/ground gained. There is no way you can argue that having to be forced to run in open ground into a deed is less likely to make pvp happen than magically teleporting someone into the safety of a deed. There is no risk and every abuses it, not just one single kingdom.

 

I would 100% prefer the 2nd option out of the two. As then at least when a formidable raid force turns up it can't outrepair them and it makes people come into local from the outside of the deed.

Edited by bloodmaster
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On 8/30/2016 at 2:46 PM, Dalvin said:

If you want to balance how about 5k rather than 1k to a deed under attack, and per the OP its once a prem alt pops local?  How about the Templars need to be killed before it comes into effect.  Then if you want to goal to be 'make the enemy have to come through trapped areas and such how about starting with a 2 hour no karma port option and trial that.  That would still allow you time to do damage and set up your position if the goal is to promote actual sword vs sword fighting.  Bottom line is playing the KvK game defending even if its just repairing a wall being shot down is still pvp.  And attacking even if its just catapulting an enemy deed is too.  Just because you want to limit the definition of pvp to actual swords crossed on the battlefield doesn't mean that's the only way the game can/should be played.

I like the idea of using more karma for deeds under attack but 5k might be a bit excessive.. But good idea.

 

Besides having a 24 hour minimum after joining a deed (i think that can and should be extended a few days even a week this way it really needs to be a thought out process) and extra karma needed while under siege it will start to encourage kingdoms to maintainnland closer together allowing more space for more groups. 

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it's dumb because the meta is just hit a deed then once everyone karmas in go to the one you actually want to hit, people already work around it 

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