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Public PvP Changes Testing Feedback

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I've spent some time this week going over a bunch of different issues brought up over the past few months, and I think I've put together enough to start some testing with everyone. First thing to keep in mind is that these tests will be ongoing over the next couple/few weeks - so don't assume that anything listed below is set in stone, everything is up for changing and tweaking if there is a good reason. There will also be more changes coming in the next couple of weeks, so the below list is not the final list of changes either.

 

These changes are in direct response to PvP issues, but will also effect PvE servers in some manner. If you're not a PvP player, please still feel free to jump on and test the changes that might effect you.

 

With that said, you can jump on test (if you're going to, I suggest you use the test unstable client, and help us kill two birds with one stone here), and see how these changes feel and work.

 

Changes as at 26/08:

  • Tweaked special move damage higher (2.5x higher than what it was)
  • Possible fix for village invite being blocked when inside an unrelated village.
  • Possible fix for not being able to lockpick a friendly structure in PvP servers.
  • Possible fix for catapulting friendly kingdom villages in PvP servers.
  • Possible fix for not being able to do a not-allowed action on deed with no guards present.
  • Possible fix for equip timers not acting as expected when in combat.
  • Fix stun timers not ticking down and removing as they should.
  • Removed the shooting at boats feature.
  • Changed the calculations for boat speed bonuses.
    • PvP servers will get 9/12 bonus from seats occupied, and 3/12 bonus from QL.
    • PvE servers will get 3/12 bonus from seats occupied, and 9/12 bonus from QL.
  • Increased difficulty of blocking arrows with a shield when positioned in the right angle to the attacker: re: http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/143437-public-pvp-changes-testing-feedback/&do=findComment&comment=1479533
    • Difficulty reduction from shield type now takes QL and damage of the shield into account.
  • Added curve modifier to wound damage reduced via Body Strength for PvP damage only
  • Removed stacking of Web Armour speed modifier and Hurting Status speed modifier. Higher of the two will now take effect.
  • Swing timer modifier from Web Armour now a multiplier of base swing timer instead of flat seconds added.
  • Web Armour debuff should now apply for a more reliable time instead of clearing semi-randomly.
  • Fix range limit of continuing on buildings to 2 tiles.

 

Changes as at 07/08:

Spoiler

 

  • Fixed priorities on equip actions. Equipping mid combat should now work properly.
  • Increased damage arrows do to boats.
  • Only allow shooting arrows at boats that have a commander.
  • Repairing a boat that has a commander should no longer be possible.
  • Boats speeds should now be updated when damaged or repaired.
  • Tweaked boat speeds to be a bit higher, with QL having a larger impact. (5/13 passengers, 8/13 QL)
  • Removed priest characteristic gain nerfs.
  • Lowered archery difficulty. Please test this one thoroughly in PvP combat, PvE combat and with the different armour penalties.
  • Fixed a bug that made special moves use the wrong hit locations and damage amounts.
    • This is what was causing some special moves to deal way too much damage compared to what they were designed for.
  • Tweaked special moves to be a bit more balanced, and do a bit more damage compared to their original intended design.
    • The damage amounts will still be a lot lower than they are currently, but still high enough in some instances to be worth using.
    • Stun timers have been significantly reduced, with a range between 2 and 4 seconds now. Was between 3 and 9 seconds.
  • Added a stun resistance similar to spell resistance, but with a shorter timer. (2.5 minutes to go from 50% to 0% resistance)
    • Consecutive stuns should have a chance to outright fail depending on the resistance and when the last successful stun occurred.

 

 

 

 

Changes as at 15/07:

Spoiler

 

  • Fix ability to shoot arrows at boats.
  • Tweaked the damage dealt from shooting at boats.
  • Shooting at boats will not damage the boat higher than 50dmg.
  • Light of Fo now takes the cast power into account.
    • Each target in the area will heal 5 wounds still, each wound healing 1/5th of the total healing power.
    • Minimum for healing on each would is around 6 or 7 dmg - even if cast power is below that.
  • Added a short timer for equipping armour after just being in combat.
    • 2 minutes after being out of combat should let you equip normally again.
  • Rebalanced the armour DR values and effectiveness strenghts/weaknesses.
    • Cloth: Base DR 0.35
      • Higher DR vs Crush & Cold
      • Lower DR vs Bite, Slash & Burn
      • Equal DR vs Pierce & Acid
    • Leather: Base DR 0.45
      • Higher DR vs Slash & Burn
      • Lower DR vs Bite, Pierce & Acid
      • Equal DR vs Crush & Cold
    • Studded: Base DR 0.50
      • Higher DR vs Bite, Crush & Acid
      • Lower DR vs Pierce & Cold
      • Equal DR vs Slash & Burn
    • Chain: Base DR 0.55
      • Higher DR vs Bite, Pierce & Burn
      • Lower DR vs Slash & Cold
      • Equal DR vs Crush & Acid
    • Plate: Base DR 0.65
      • Higher DR vs Bite, Slash & Acid
      • Lower DR vs Crush & Burn
      • Equal DR vs Pierce & Cold
    • Drake: Base DR 0.65
      • Higher DR vs Crush & Cold
      • Lower DR vs Slash & Acid
      • Equal DR vs Bite, Pierce & Burn
    • Scale: Base DR 0.70
      • Higher DR vs Pierce & Burn
      • Lower DR vs Crush & Cold
      • Equal DR vs Bite, Slash & Acid

 

 

 

Changes as at 08/07:

Spoiler
  • Offline players no longer add to the speed of a boat.
  • Boat speed is now determined by a 50/50 split between occupied seats and QL. Previously this was 10/11 seats occupied and 1/11 QL.
  • Added an action to fire arrows at a boat (that you are not on) to cause damage (PvP servers only). Uses the same mechanic as arrow targets, so may need some fiddling.
  • Heal spell will now heal up to the spell's cast power, with a cast of 100 giving 100% heal.
  • Spell resistances now last approximately 5 minutes instead of 30 seconds. Same mechanic as previously, if the same spell is cast on a player that has the resistance, the spell has a chance to outright fail. Resistance level ticks down over time.
  • Locate spell now checks based against the Locate spell's power and the NoLocate spell's power, instead of flat fail when NoLocate was cast on a person, and a random check when cast on an item. If the Locate spell's power is greater than the NoLocate power, the spell will succeed.
  • Changed Karma, Meditation teleports to check that you've been in a village for at least 24 hours before being able to teleport to it.
  • Critical attacks now do 1.5x damage instead of 2x. This applies to True Strike as well.
  • Modified the base DR of some armour types:
    • Cloth, Plate, Drake and Scale: Unchanged
    • Leather: 0.4 > 0.45
    • Studded Leather: 0.45 > 0.55
    • Chain: 0.5 > 0.6
  • Armour DR is now affected by the type of damage dealt:
    • I've spent a fair whack of time trying to balance these buffs and debuffs as much as possible, but the basic gist is that on average things won't be too much different than current DR values, but when speccing yourself for certain fights against certain armour types or damage types, the other armours less used (e.g. chain, studded), can be as good, or better than plate armour (assuming equal QL).
    • Cloth
      • Less effective against: Bite, Pierce, Slash, Burn
      • More effective against: Crush, Cold, Acid
    • Leather
      • Less effective against: Bite, Pierce, Acid
      • More effective against: Slash, Burn
      • No change: Crush, Cold
    • Studded Leather
      • Less effective against: Cold, Acid
      • More effective against: Bite, Crush, Pierce
      • No Change: Slash, Burn
    • Chain
      • Less effective against: Burn, Cold
      • More effective against: Bite, Crush, Slash
      • No Change: Pierce, Acid
    • Plate
      • Less effective against: Crush, Pierce
      • More effective against: Bite, Slash, Cold, Acid
      • No Change: Burn
    • Drake
      • Less effective against: Pierce, Acid
      • More effective against: Crush, Cold
      • No Change: Bite, Slash, Burn
    • Scale
      • Less effective against: Crush, Cold
      • More effective against: Pierce, Burn
      • No Change: Bite, Slash, Acid

 

 

Test Client

http://www.wurmonline.com/client/wurmclient_test.jnlp

Unstable Test Client

http://www.wurmonline.com/client/wurmclient_test_unstable.jnlp

 

So jump on and get testing - post your findings and data and feedback here :).

 

Final Note: This thread will be heavily policed in accordance with feature feedback threads. Anything that I don't find useful knowledge relating to these changes in one way or another will be removed. This thread is for feedback on the above functionality and how it actually feels in game, not how you think it might feel without actually trying it. If you have suggestions for more changes unrelated to the ones listed above, start a new thread in the suggestions forums.

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The last thread devolved largely into posts saying "No don't work on that, work on this instead", with very little useful information. Having said that, thank you to the few people that actually gave me useful feedback. I still have access to the last thread, and I will be using the feedback that you've given me so far.

 

This thread will be even more heavily moderated. Any posts that are not very specifically feedback from testing will be removed and in relevant cases the poster will be warned.

 

I'll start off with what I would've said at the end of the last thread, for everyone complaining to keep in mind. The above changes are NOT FINAL.This is an ongoing process. If your favourite idea from your buddy isn't on the list above, that doesn't mean it is not being worked on now or in the future before these changes go live. If you think one of the above changes is the worst thing to happen to the world since canned vegetables, go test it out on the server and post your feedback AFTER actually testing it. My change notes above might not be perfect, so the best way to see how something works is to experience it yourself - it is probably not as bad as you immediately assume. I have a long list of potential changes that I am still going through, these will slowly be added to this thread over the coming weeks. Just because something isn't completed now does not mean it isn't on my list.

 

If your post is not direct feedback on any listed changes above after testing them, your post will be removed. This is not a discussion, opinion or suggestion thread, this is a testing feedback thread. Test, then feedback.

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Shooting at boats simply doesn't do enough damage to be worthwhile.

 

With 90 archery, 20ql shortbow, and 20ql arrows, this was the result of firing 40 shots:

 

[04:54:38] It has a clinker-built hull assembled with iron rivets and one mast with a square yard sail. At insufficient wind it is rowed with oars. The side rudder is on the starboard side. It is locked with a lock of below average quality. It is made from birchwood. It could be improved with a log. Ql: 60.0, Dam: 0.23107433. The name of the owner, Alexgopen, has been etched in the stern.

 

.23 damage in total.  That's not going to cause any significant change in a boats speed, even if every single passenger fires both of their quivers full of arrows.  They'd have more effect on the boat's speed by shooting out the players unless the damage is tweaked upwards. 

 

I also think that we should only be able to shoot at boats that have a captain embarked, because otherwise if the damage is tweaked up then people will shoot boats up to 50 dmg to make them easier to lockpick.

Edited by Alexgopen
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Ok Just did a test using 70ql Bows with 69.18ql arrows at 90 archery skill.

 

Found Alexgopen boat, and did the tests on the same boat.

I only used 1 arrow to get the results.

 

60ql Knarr Results.

Shortbow - Ql: 59.974422, Dam: 0.019026395

Medium Bow  - Ql: 59.971638, Dam: 0.014116957

Longbow - Ql: 59.969624, Dam: 0.039791074

-----------------------------------------------

20ql Knarr 

Short Bow - Ql: 20.0, Dam: 0.019824358.

Bow - Ql: 19.998924, Dam: 0.018367173. 

Longbow - Ql: 19.997355, Dam: 0.02426258.

 

40ql Sail Boat

Shortbow - Ql: 40.0, Dam: 0.011753199

Bow - Ql: 39.998882, Dam: 0.0053693233

Longbow - Ql: 39.998817, Dam: 0.026503948

 

40ql Rare Sail Boat 

Shortbow - Ql: 40.0, Dam: 0.021961125.

Bow - Ql: 39.99989, Dam: 0.020364275.

Longbow - Ql: 39.99911, Dam: 0.00527437.

 

84ql Rowing boat

Shortbow - Ql: 84.0, Dam: 0.015175283.

Bow - Ql: 83.99933, Dam: 0.0034383072.

Long Bow - Ql: 83.999176, Dam: 0.02648429.

Edited by shakys
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I noticed that I sometimes was able to change weapons/shield during melee, but sometimes wasn't...

 

Any reason for that?

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10 minutes ago, Bittereinder said:

I noticed that I sometimes was able to change weapons/shield during melee, but sometimes wasn't...

 

Any reason for that?

 

Yeah I've messed up the priorities of those equip actions currently, will have them fixed when the next update goes in.

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Testing

Shooting at boats at close distance with a short bow and full plate equipped. Short bow has the best dps at close range out of all bows due to the high hit chance.

 

80 archery, 80 sub skill, 69.18ql arrows, 70ql bow

[13:44:40] A small sailing boat that will accommodate five people. It is made from birchwood. It could be improved with a log. Ql: 39.991173, Dam: 0.036420513. The name of the owner, Blayzea, has been etched in the stern.

[13:45:13] A small sailing boat that will accommodate five people. It is made from birchwood. It could be improved with a log. Ql: 39.98742, Dam: 0.034198493. The name of the owner, Blayzea, has been etched in the stern.

 

Repair:

[13:47:36] You start repairing the "40 quality".

[13:47:37] You repair the "40 quality".

 

Damage/second Test 1:

Start: [13:49:20] You let the arrow fly.

End:  [13:50:27] Your arrow hits the "40 quality".

 

[13:51:31] A small sailing boat that will accommodate five people. It is made from birchwood. It could be improved with a log. Ql: 39.984272, Dam: 0.41053972. The name of the owner, Blayzea, has been etched in the stern.

 

Change in time: 67 seconds

Change in damage: 0.41

Damage per second: 0.0061

 

Estimated damage per second for 4 people: 0.0244

Estimated time needed to break: 1.14 hours

 

Estimated damage per second for 12 people: 0.073100

Estimated time needed to break: 22.8 minutes

 

Damage/second Test 2:

[14:00:31] You start aiming at a "40 quality".

[14:08:38] Your arrow hits the "40 quality".

 

[14:09:03] A small sailing boat that will accommodate five people. It is made from birchwood. It could be improved with a log. Ql: 39.946815, Dam: 1.6681906. The name of the owner, Blayzea, has been etched in the stern.

 

[14:27:24] You start repairing the "40 quality".

[14:27:25] You repair the "40 quality".

 

Repair time: 1 second

Repair damage per second: 1.668 (could be more)

 

Change in time: 487 seconds

Change in damage: 1.6681906

Damage per second: 0.0034

 

Arrows shot: 114

Arrows hit: 112

Arrows collected in boat: 65

Damage per arrow: 0.0146

Arrows per second: 0.234

 

Estimated damage per second for 4 people: 0.0136

Estimated time needed to break: 2.04 hours

 

Estimated damage per second for 12 people: 0.04081

Estimated time needed to break: 40.8 minutes

 

 

Results continued:

Assuming 1.5 quivers per person @ 41 arrows per quiver, or about 62 arrows per person

 

Estimated number of arrows on a sail boat: 248

Estimated damage done with all arrows: 3.6208

 

Estimated number of arrows on a knarr: 744

Estimated damage done with all arrows: 10.8624

 

 

Feedback

The damage done on boats is way too low especially when the defender can repair 8.1 minutes worth of damage in 1 second. The total damage that one knarr could possible inflict on another boat (assuming 40ql) is only 10 damage. The speed reduction with that amount of damage is extremely small especially in comparison to the time it would take to make 744 arrows at 70ql. Not to mention if the arrows were enchanted. With this change all pvp boat will be improved to at least 90ql so the damage would be even less than what I tested for.

 

What I suggest:

Increase the damage done on the boats so that a person would do around 0.03 damage per second. This would make a sail boat of people do around 0.12 dps with a total time to break at 13.9 minutes (40ql). A knarr would do 0.48 dps with a total break time of 4.63 minutes (40ql). While these values might seem too high you have to weigh into the amount of arrows that will be used. With 0.03 dps it would take 195 arrows to break a boat. That would be 78.6% of the arrows a sail boat has and 26.2% of what a knarr has. If you assume that there is a drastic speed reduction at around 40% damage then that would mean a sail boat could do around 2 rounds and a knarr would be able to do around 8. If you calculate how much a single arrows would do per hit, it would be 0.128 damage (80 archery, 70ql bow 70ql arrows). 

 

The second part to this is a drastic increase of repair time of boats or make it so boats can not be repaired while commanded. Even if the dps of arrows is increased, without the change in repairing it will still be useless. The damage repair rate is over 1.668 damage per second. A sail boat could repair 8.34 damage a second and a knarr could do 21.68 (commanders can repair). 

 

If repair time is increased for boats then the repair rate would have to be proportional to the damage intake rate. This would force some people to focus on repairing and take them off of archery. Something that might be good for the repair time is the slightly more than the dps that a person can do with archery, around 0.04 damage repaired per second. This would still allow a boat to out repair the damage taken but they would still have to focus on the damage and devote more people to repairing when taking heavy damage.

 

Even if you do not allow boats to be repaired while commanded, the repair time should still be increased. If the entire knarr of people jumps out and repairs, it would only take 4-5 seconds (assuming 100% damage). With the amount of arrows lost, the 4-5 second gap closure would not be worth it.

 

With the increased damage it might be necessary to make it so you cant fire on boat when not commanded to prevent grieving and skip lock picking.

 

Edit: **Make it so you cant fire on a boat unless that boat is commanded**

Edited by blayze
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How does the speed reduction work for the boat damage? 

 

I got a bot up to 5 damage and repaired it while sailing and there wasn't a change in speed.

 

Edit:

nvm

effective ql = ql * (1 - dmg / 100)

 

Edit 2:

Ok so tested with a someone who could change the damage of the boat (Keenan/Rizi thanks). The speed of the boat remains the same even if you take damage or repair it unless you get off and back on again.

Edited by blayze

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10 hours ago, blayze said:

With the increased damage it might be necessary to make it so you cant fire on boat when not commanded to prevent grieving and skip lock picking.

 

Seems easy to circumvent by just being on a horse/wagon/cart/boat nearby, would need to be some kind distance from water level requirement and even that could be bypassed in a boat mine or a random boat in the ocean. Perhaps it needs to have people on board the target boat (either passenger or commander not important) to prevent abuse and if someone has the permissions set to allow your mates on while you pick then tough?

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11 hours ago, SmeJack said:

 

Seems easy to circumvent by just being on a horse/wagon/cart/boat nearby, would need to be some kind distance from water level requirement and even that could be bypassed in a boat mine or a random boat in the ocean. Perhaps it needs to have people on board the target boat (either passenger or commander not important) to prevent abuse and if someone has the permissions set to allow your mates on while you pick then tough?

 

I believe what he means, like what I meant, is that the target boat should have a captain in order to be shot at.  If its not picked yet it can't have a captain (unless irresponsible permissions), so then loot boats can't just be shot and picked easier.

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Changes as at 07/08:

  • Fixed priorities on equip actions. Equipping mid combat should now work properly.
  • Increased damage arrows do to boats.
  • Only allow shooting arrows at boats that have a commander.
  • Repairing a boat that has a commander should no longer be possible.
  • Boats speeds should now be updated when damaged or repaired.
  • Tweaked boat speeds to be a bit higher, with QL having a larger impact. (5/13 passengers, 8/13 QL)
  • Removed priest characteristic gain nerfs.
  • Lowered archery difficulty. Please test this one thoroughly in PvP combat, PvE combat and with the different armour penalties.
  • Fixed a bug that made special moves use the wrong hit locations and damage amounts.
    • This is what was causing some special moves to deal way too much damage compared to what they were designed for.
  • Tweaked special moves to be a bit more balanced, and do a bit more damage compared to their original intended design.
    • The damage amounts will still be a lot lower than they are currently, but still high enough in some instances to be worth using.
    • Stun timers have been significantly reduced, with a range between 2 and 4 seconds now. Was between 3 and 9 seconds.
  • Added a stun resistance similar to spell resistance, but with a shorter timer. (2.5 minutes to go from 50% to 0% resistance)
    • Consecutive stuns should have a chance to outright fail depending on the resistance and when the last successful stun occurred.
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[13:14:14] The boat needs a driver before you can fire at it.

 

good

Edited by Alexgopen

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Just a reminder, this is for discussion of numbers, and feedback upon actual testing.

 

For more general discussion, please use this thread:

 

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90 all my skills, 90ql longsword, fighting a spider

 

Testing Bloodscion:

 

[13:18:34] You try a Bloodscion.

[13:18:34] Damage=2741.1898803710938*0.7=1918.8328835822358 crit=false

[13:18:34] You lunge and cut a venerable hardened huge spider pretty hard in the legs and irritate it.

[13:18:34] Damage=1370.5949401855469*0.7=959.4164417911179 crit=false

[13:18:34] You lunge and cut a venerable hardened huge spider lightly in the left leg and slap it.

[13:18:34] Damage=1370.5949401855469*0.7=959.4164417911179 crit=false

[13:18:34] You lunge and cut a venerable hardened huge spider lightly in the right leg and slap it.

 

irritate slap slap for -15k stamina

 

not worth using anymore

 

 

Here's a punch with no weapon for comparison

 

[13:23:57] Damage=1942.7059645797801*0.7=1359.8941520469864 crit=false

[13:23:57] You hit an aged hardened huge spider lightly in the left leg and irritate it.

 

How about a Raktaktak:

 

[13:27:04] You try a Raktaktak.

[13:27:04] An old hardened huge spider takes no real damage from the hit to the left foreleg.

[13:27:04] Damage=800.0*0.7=559.9999904632568 crit=false

[13:27:04] You assault an old hardened huge spider very lightly in the chest and slap it.

[13:27:04] An old hardened huge spider takes no real damage from the hit to the right foreleg.

[13:27:04] An old hardened huge spider loses concentration.

 

not worth using either, cant even damage a spider on all the hits after multiple tries, and costs lots of stamina

 

 

Now for a regular swing of my sword:

[13:29:19] Damage=20680.839188218288*0.7=14476.587185217986 crit=false

[13:29:19] You cut a venerable hardened huge spider deadly hard in the stomach and damage it.

 

deadly and damage as expected

 

 

 

Special moves don't do any considerable damage now, often less than even weaponless punching. 

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6 hours ago, Alexgopen said:

90 all my skills, 90ql longsword, fighting a spider

 

Testing Bloodscion:

 

[13:18:34] You try a Bloodscion.

[13:18:34] Damage=2741.1898803710938*0.7=1918.8328835822358 crit=false

[13:18:34] You lunge and cut a venerable hardened huge spider pretty hard in the legs and irritate it.

[13:18:34] Damage=1370.5949401855469*0.7=959.4164417911179 crit=false

[13:18:34] You lunge and cut a venerable hardened huge spider lightly in the left leg and slap it.

[13:18:34] Damage=1370.5949401855469*0.7=959.4164417911179 crit=false

[13:18:34] You lunge and cut a venerable hardened huge spider lightly in the right leg and slap it.

 

irritate slap slap for -15k stamina

 

not worth using anymore

 

 

Here's a punch with no weapon for comparison

 

[13:23:57] Damage=1942.7059645797801*0.7=1359.8941520469864 crit=false

[13:23:57] You hit an aged hardened huge spider lightly in the left leg and irritate it.

 

How about a Raktaktak:

 

[13:27:04] You try a Raktaktak.

[13:27:04] An old hardened huge spider takes no real damage from the hit to the left foreleg.

[13:27:04] Damage=800.0*0.7=559.9999904632568 crit=false

[13:27:04] You assault an old hardened huge spider very lightly in the chest and slap it.

[13:27:04] An old hardened huge spider takes no real damage from the hit to the right foreleg.

[13:27:04] An old hardened huge spider loses concentration.

 

not worth using either, cant even damage a spider on all the hits after multiple tries, and costs lots of stamina

 

 

Now for a regular swing of my sword:

[13:29:19] Damage=20680.839188218288*0.7=14476.587185217986 crit=false

[13:29:19] You cut a venerable hardened huge spider deadly hard in the stomach and damage it.

 

deadly and damage as expected

 

 

 

Special moves don't do any considerable damage now, often less than even weaponless punching. 

 

Thanks, will tweak those further upwards.

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Testing

Archery against players with different armor and shields

 

Attacker: 80 skill, 70ql short bow, 67.3ql arrows, plate armor

Note: Short bow has the best hit chance but lowest damage per shot. Due to the higher hit chance it does the most damage per second.

 

Defender: No armor, no shield, no weapon, 80 skill

18% damage

11% damage

12% damage

Average damage: ~14%

 

No Shield, Good armor damage testing

Defender: Chain armor (90ql), no shield, no weapon, 80 skill

Damage %  Message
4% [21:34:31] Difficulty=32, of which deviation=4.000606701305178, bonus=83.0, power=22.435483932495117
6% [21:35:38] Difficulty=32, of which deviation=4.000606701305178, bonus=83.0, power=47.66843795776367
miss [21:36:07] Difficulty=32, of which deviation=4.000606701305178, bonus=83.0, power=56.04621124267578
miss [21:36:28] Difficulty=32, of which deviation=4.000606701305178, bonus=83.0, power=24.460050582885742
4% [21:36:44] Difficulty=32, of which deviation=4.000606701305178, bonus=83.0, power=23.646268844604492
miss [21:37:13] Difficulty=32, of which deviation=4.000606701305178, bonus=83.0, power=44.44349670410156
miss [21:37:32] Difficulty=32, of which deviation=4.000606701305178, bonus=83.0, power=27.457292556762695
miss [21:37:50] Difficulty=32, of which deviation=4.000606701305178, bonus=83.0, power=51.32978057861328
6% [21:37:59] Difficulty=32, of which deviation=4.000606701305178, bonus=83.0, power=62.915218353271484
8% [21:38:27] Difficulty=32, of which deviation=4.000606701305178, bonus=83.0, power=13.161285400390625

Hit chance: ~50% (not very accurate, need more data)

Average damage: 5.6%

 

Defender: Plate armor (90ql), no shield, no weapon, 80 skill

Damage %  Message
miss [21:40:33] Difficulty=36, of which deviation=4.000606701305178, bonus=83.0, power=19.961780548095703
miss [21:41:09] Difficulty=36, of which deviation=4.000606701305178, bonus=83.0, power=52.212493896484375
miss [21:41:20] Difficulty=36, of which deviation=4.000606701305178, bonus=83.0, power=54.18221664428711
5% [21:41:25] Difficulty=36, of which deviation=4.000606701305178, bonus=83.0, power=29.661365509033203
miss [21:42:01] Difficulty=36, of which deviation=4.000606701305178, bonus=83.0, power=35.065391540527344
5% [21:42:14] Difficulty=36, of which deviation=4.000606701305178, bonus=83.0, power=90.86126708984375
miss [21:42:41] Difficulty=36, of which deviation=4.000606701305178, bonus=83.0, power=-7.766063690185547
miss [21:42:50] Difficulty=36, of which deviation=4.000606701305178, bonus=83.0, power=-0.5651741027832031
miss [21:43:00] Difficulty=36, of which deviation=4.000606701305178, bonus=83.0, power=6.889659881591797
miss [21:43:07] Difficulty=36, of which deviation=4.000606701305178, bonus=83.0, power=46.4334716796875

Hit chance: ~20% (not very accurate, need more data)

Average damage: 5%

 

 

Hit chance testing (with/without good armor)

 

Defender: Plate armor (90ql), Large metal shield (90ql), long sword (90ql), 80 skill, optimal shield position (attacker on left side of screen)

Total shooting time: ~8 minutes

Total arrows shot: 79 (1.92 quivers)

Hit chance: 2.5% (2/79)

Block change: 97.5%

Damage done: 9% (by the time I finished, the first wound had almost healed)

 

Defender: Chain armor (90ql), Large metal shield (90ql), long sword (90ql), 80 skill, optimal shield position (attacker on left side of screen)

Total shooting time: ~8 minutes

Total arrows shot: 79 (1.92 quivers)

Hit chance: 2.5% (2/79)

Block change: 97.5%

Damage done: 12%

 

Defender: No armor, Large metal shield (90ql), long sword (90ql), 80 skill, optimal shield position (attacker on left side of screen)

Total shooting time: ~8 minutes

Total arrows shot: 79 (1.92 quivers)

Hit chance: 1.2% (1/79)

Block change: 98.8%

Damage done: 13%

 

 

Feedback: 

The block chance for shields that are optimally facing the attacker is way too high (98.8% without armor). If you know how to use a shield (almost everyone) you are invincible against archery. This has been one of the main problems with boat pvp. You often get a sail boat of people that are being chased by a sail boat of people. The only thing that the boat running away needs to do is put on their shield, sail in the right direction, and they will easily and safely make it back across the map. Even if you have 5 people shooting a single person on a boat, those five people will only do about 50% damage with 2 quivers each (395 total arrows). Even if you have a knarr of 12 people, if there is a person who can cast heal, they can still have a really good chance to get away. This problem is also common in raiding. As long as you have a shield, you can stand at the base of an enemy's deed and point your shield, you can take thousands of arrows and not die.

 

 

Suggestion:

Decrease the optimal shield position accuracy from 98.8% to around 30% or lower. The next part is to make sure that the base armor adds into the block chance (non-mutually exclusive P(a or b)).

With this you would get the following: (Adding probability of non-mutually exclusive events its P(a or b) = P(a) + P(b) - P(a and b))

 

No armor: (30% shield block = 30% total block chance) - 774% total damage from 79 arrows (1.92 quivers)

Chain: (30% shield block + 50% chain block = 65% total block chance) - 154% total damage from 79 arrows (1.92 quivers)

Plate: (30% shield block + 80% plate block = 86% total block chance) - 55% total damage from 79 arrows (1.92 quivers)

 

This does not mean that shield would take a overall nurf, just the optimal position where the shooter is on the left side of the screen.

Edited by blayze

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I agree with blayze, shields currently make archery pretty much useless against players. Here's a past example of how just pointing your shield in the right direction makes you practically impervious to arrows in live Wurm. As soon as I took the first arrow all I had to do was point my shield in the right direction and I was at no risk of dying, despite two sailboats shooting at me:

 

 

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Testing:

Archery against boats v2

 

Attacker: 80 skills, Plate armor (90ql), Short Bow (70ql), Arrows (56.5 ql)

 

Damage testing: 

A small sailing boat that will accommodate five people. It is made from birchwood. It could be improved with a log. Ql: 59.49399, Dam: 0.22574528.

A small sailing boat that will accommodate five people. It is made from birchwood. It could be improved with a log. Ql: 59.45249, Dam: 0.2699087.

 

Speed change testing:

 

A small sailing boat that will accommodate five people. It is made from birchwood. It could be improved with a log. Ql: 59.40675, Dam: 0.14429581.

Speed before damage: 13.77

Speed after damage 13.77

Speed repair 13.77

Change in speed: 0

 

A small sailing boat that will accommodate five people. It is made from birchwood. It could be improved with a log. Ql: 59.399216, Dam: 2.3031178.

Speed before damage: 13.97

Speed after damage 13.97

Speed repair 13.97

Change in speed: 0

 

A small sailing boat that will accommodate five people. It is made from birchwood. It could be improved with a log. Ql: 59.190517, Dam: 5.287818.

Speed with damage: 13.84

Speed after repair: 19.97

Change in speed: 0.13

 

Two quivers (82 arrows)

[00:12:02] A small sailing boat that will accommodate five people. It is made from birchwood. It could be improved with a log. Ql: 38.61148, Dam: 6.1203265. (first quiver)

[00:16:11] A small sailing boat that will accommodate five people. It is made from birchwood. It could be improved with a log. Ql: 38.61148, Dam: 11.457039. (second quiver)

Speed before damage: 13.36

Speed with damage (first quiver 6.12 damage): 13.21, 1.1% change in speed

Speed with damage (second quiver 11.4 damage): 13.08,  2% change in speed

Speed after repair: 13.36

 

First quiver speed change: 0.15

Second quiver speed change: 0.28

 

Feedback:

The change in speed does not make enough of a difference to justify shooting at the boats. Two full quivers (82 arrows) only made a 0.28 km/h difference. That is an average of  0.003km/h difference per arrow. 

 

 

Suggestion:

Change the speed formula so that damage makes larger difference without making the speed difference for quality too drastic. The formula could be changed so that the percent damage is how much slower you go. So if you have 20% damage you go 20% slower. If you have 50% damage you go 50% slower. It currently takes 2 quivers (82) arrows to do 13 damage so a single player could slow the boat by 13%.

Edited by blayze
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While not even trying to test equiping, I did.  I got timers to equip dragging to paperdoll without any combat at all, and paperdoll is still limited to mind logic when it used to not be, which is a hefty nerf to lower skilledplayers.  Doesn't seem like it would solve much other than buffing dragon armor for movement speeds and be very annoying

 

Spoiler

[14:13:56] After you finish equipping you will start equipping again.
[14:13:56] After you finish equipping you will start equipping again.
[14:13:56] After you finish equipping you will start equipping again.
[14:13:56] After you finish equipping you will start equipping again.
[14:13:56] You're too busy.
[14:13:56] You're too busy.
[14:13:56] You're too busy.
[14:13:56] You're too busy.
[14:13:56] You try to quickly equip the breast plate.
[14:13:58] You wear a breast plate.
[14:13:58] You try to quickly equip the great helm.
[14:14:00] You wear a great helm.
[14:14:00] You try to quickly equip the plate gauntlet.
[14:14:02] You wear a plate gauntlet.
[14:14:02] You try to quickly equip the plate gauntlet.
[14:14:04] You wear a plate gauntlet.
[14:14:04] You try to quickly equip the plate leggings.
[14:14:06] You wear a plate leggings.
[14:14:09] After you finish equipping you will start equipping again.
[14:14:09] After you finish equipping you will start equipping again.
[14:14:09] After you finish equipping you will start equipping again.
[14:14:09] You try to quickly equip the plate sabaton.
[14:14:11] You wear a plate sabaton.
[14:14:11] You try to quickly equip the plate sabaton.
[14:14:13] You wear a plate sabaton.
[14:14:13] You try to quickly equip the plate vambrace.
[14:14:15] You wear a plate vambrace.
[14:14:15] You try to quickly equip the plate vambrace.
[14:14:17] You wear a plate vambrace.

 

Edit: tried it in combat with just helm/chest/legs off, seems broken, no timers and only does one piece

 

Spoiler

[14:17:39] After you finish equipping you will start equipping again.
[14:17:39] You wear a great helm.
[14:17:43] You are now too far away to attack -.
[14:17:43] You wear a breast plate.
[14:17:43] You wear a plate leggings.

 

Edit2: If I just spam equip keybind I get this:

 

Spoiler

[14:22:38] You wear a great helm.
[14:22:38] You wear a great helm.
[14:22:38] You wear a breast plate.
[14:22:39] You wear a breast plate.
[14:22:39] You wear a plate leggings.
[14:22:39] You wear a plate leggings.

 

But when I was taking stuff off to test that, dragging my pants off in paperdoll started a timer to equip and made my client 100% non responding until closing, random and dunno if related to equip

 

Also I'm not sure if enemy need to see this in event, pretty much paints a target on the weaker players that will be needing to take armor off to move:

 

Spoiler

[14:13:56] Mrgary struggles to quickly equip the breast plate.
[14:13:58] Mrgary struggles to quickly equip the great helm.
[14:14:00] Mrgary struggles to quickly equip the plate gauntlet.
[14:14:02] Mrgary struggles to quickly equip the plate gauntlet.
[14:14:04] Mrgary struggles to quickly equip the plate leggings.
[14:14:09] Mrgary struggles to quickly equip the plate sabaton.
[14:14:11] Mrgary struggles to quickly equip the plate sabaton.
[14:14:13] Mrgary struggles to quickly equip the plate vambrace.
[14:14:15] Mrgary struggles to quickly equip the plate vambrace.

 

Edited by MrGARY
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Budda can you update your OP with any of the chages you have made but keep the original post Just add to it extra tweaks that were made. 

 

Even after conducting tests one thing that i still seeing a problem with arrows damage to boats is numbers will always win, taking out probably of one of the better player skilled systems wurm curently has. I know this might be asking much and some devs might think of it as they dont want to waste their time which means this system is going to get shoved down our throats... But why cant there be a ballista type boat mounted weapon that can be built on boats? Sail boats only get 1 slot or 2, front and back. The passengers in those positions can mount them and shoot, ballista ammo used instead of arrows. This way even a lower numberd boat can stand a chance if commanded correctly. How about the bigger the boat the more slots available. 

 

Boat fighting (aside from unbalanced heal) is probably one of the most fun engagements in wurm (when you arent being affected by desync and bugs). Why change it to who ever has more people wins?

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Crew (sailor) vs soldier using link system:  Crew linked to the commander impacts speed but can't shoot.  Unlinked = can shoot (or cast) but headcount does not affect the boat performance.  "Commanded correctly" (per Maurizio's point) now involves a conscious decision and communication versus purely RNG -- teamwork matters and everyone has a useful role (not just an extra body sitting afk for max speed) regardless of 2 year old account vs 8 year old account.

 

 

 

 

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well after extensive testing I can't see why Karma 24 hour CD cannot be released into game. Looks good to go! Nice update in the right direction.

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On 22/08/2016 at 8:34 PM, Mclovin said:

well after extensive testing I can't see why Karma 24 hour CD cannot be released into game. Looks good to go! Nice update in the right direction.

 

Theres quite a lot of opposition to that mechanic change, perhaps a vote/debate on it is needed.

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