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Ondar

Sold silver through paypal to Niru, now he disputes it

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Also means, if Enki were to reverse his decision and give something to the affected players that Redd shouldn't get anything.  And if he is as honest as he is saying he is (I have nothing to know he isn't), then he'd tell Enki when they tried to give him something that he wasn't out anything and refuse the offer.  Just saying.

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2 minutes ago, Pashka said:

Also means, if Enki were to reverse his decision and give something to the affected players that Redd shouldn't get anything.  And if he is as honest as he is saying he is (I have nothing to know he isn't), then he'd tell Enki when they tried to give him something that he wasn't out anything and refuse the offer.  Just saying.

 

Why wouldn't he qualify?  Cuz he cleared his debt with Paypal?  That's up to Wurm's staff if they want to give items back and he would qualify like the rest of us who got scammed...he cleared off his debt how is that so hard to understand is beyond me...

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I would like to see people get there items back, but the thing is its not 'policy' for wurm to do so when it concerns outside transactions. 

 

If they did decide to try and hand back items it would be a horrible amount of work due to so many items and people involved going through the server logs trying to figure out what item belongs to who, especially if some items have changed hands multiple times.

 

Deeds are gone, characters banned. Economy had a huge shake up, this affected not only the people directly involved with the con artist, but pretty much the entire wurm community.

 

It is nice to see pay pal get strong-armed into acting as a responsible business, as blaming payment defaults on a credit card company when it is beyond your control was a sleezy way out of getting out of the payments when a normal business would of eaten the loss at the start.

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As to Shags, he got his money for what he sold.  So he isn't out anything like the rest that have not been able to get their money back or get the credit erased off their account.

 

Enki stated that giving the items back would entail involving alot of players other than those that sold items to him through Paypal.  Each train led to probly several people.  I would be one of those that got hit as well.  I sold items to him for silver.  Silver that most likely he got from buying from one of the affected people.  The silver that I got has most likely been used for upkeep or any number of other things.  Those people would be affected too.  I'm sure I wasn't the only player that sold him items for silver.

 

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That was the point of Redd's post...how to erase that credit as that's the only thing that can be done which is better than being

1 hour ago, Pashka said:

As to Shags, he got his money for what he sold.  So he isn't out anything like the rest that have not been able to get their money back or get the credit erased off their account.

 

Enki stated that giving the items back would entail involving alot of players other than those that sold items to him through Paypal.  Each train led to probly several people.  I would be one of those that got hit as well.  I sold items to him for silver.  Silver that most likely he got from buying from one of the affected people.  The silver that I got has most likely been used for upkeep or any number of other things.  Those people would be affected too.  I'm sure I wasn't the only player that sold him items for silver.

 

by a credit agency regarding money owned to Paypal...

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I'm out 80 Euro in this mess and I'm really glad Redd posted.  Very helpful. Thank you.

 

If I thought this was all just a silly question since the items are never coming back I would not have bothered posting, but do we really know that?  Has the final final final decision been made?  I try to keep current but may have missed something.  What I keep going back to is Enki's original statement on this subject that held the door wide open for items to be returned at a future date after all due legal process was completed. Since Enki linked financial institution settlement with potential item return, they clearly are linked and not separate items. Sorry I don't know how to properly link from other threads on the forum, so go to his post and read it yourself.  But here is the relevant part:

 

"This is very unfortunate, but there is still long term potential for any of the affected to dispute this situation with their financial institutions which also makes it improper for us to take any short term actions regarding any items that were in the player's possession."  Enki, July 11th, Real World Transactions

 

Seems that Code Club was 100% aware settlements like Redd's had the potential to be reached and are waiting to see what happens before making any long term decision--could take another year or more I bet. I suspect that regardless of whatever final decision CodeClub may make, their view is that anyone who has their money is now fully settled regardless.

 

As to the drama, for myself, I state plainly that if I get my money back from PayPal, I'll post and drop any claim I might have to a future return of items.  This doesn't seem unreasonable at all to me and I invite others who either are still owed money or have already received a full settlement to make a similar statement.

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@Shagsangel

I initially intended to pose this question to you alone, but realize it's likely better to open the question to all the people who were scammed by Niru.

 

If say tomorrow you contact your representative, they contact Paypal and after some chatter Paypal agrees to credit your account in the amount they deducted due to the scam.

My question is..

Do you feel you are still owed the goods/gold/silver that you sold to Niru in Wurm, and expect them to be returned to you?

 

Yes or No, and a short explanation as to why you feel this way.

Thanks

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12 hours ago, Eobersig said:

It also means Paypal has to abide by European banking regulations like just any other bank in the EU.

 

I don't know much about Paypal in the EU, but in the US it is not a bank, does not abide by banking laws. This was a point brought up in a class action lawsuit many years ago in California (which PayPal lost). I could have applied for restitution under the lawsuit but didn't. The number of complainants was far to high to bother for the few dollars I might have gotten. I just accepted that trading in virtual goods is very risky and limit my exposure to PayPal. I don't keep any money in my Paypal account, I don't have a linked bank account. The account I had with them at the time is still locked with a negative balance. They have never made an attempt to collect or tarnish my credit report (which wouldn't have mattered at the time anyway). They even gave me a credit card for a while.

 

PayPal operates in a grey area between being a bank and being a merchant or credit card company. Laws and lawmakers just don't understand this area and few outside of very progressive places (like California) have made any attempt to regulate this.

 

I feel for anyone affected by this and hope you do get some resolution. Don't forget to pressure the credit card company they rejected the claim, the rules regarding credit cards are usually more concrete, and linked into the banking system.

 

Does anyone know where this person lives? If anyone lives in the same region, they could try to put forward a criminal complaint at the local police. International police probably won't bother, but locals might.

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2 minutes ago, Gumbo said:

@Shagsangel

I initially intended to pose this question to you alone, but realize it's likely better to open the question to all the people who were scammed by Niru.

 

If say tomorrow you contact your representative, they contact Paypal and after some chatter Paypal agrees to credit your account in the amount they deducted due to the scam.

My question is..

Do you feel you are still owed the goods/gold/silver that you sold to Niru in Wurm, and expect them to be returned to you?

 

Yes or No, and a short explanation as to why you feel this way.

Thanks

 

Of course not.  If I get my money, why would I feel entitled to get the goods back as well?  Niru paid me, PayPal reversed it.  If Paypal were to reverse it again, my original payment from Niru stands as far as I'm concerned.

 

That being said, if the goods were going to be handed out anyway in say a treasure hunt or something, I'd take back what I could find and not feel it was double dipping.  Also, in the bizarre case if Code Club were to show up and literally drop stuff at my feet, against my objection that I was not accepting it back and that I had already been paid, I suppose I'd pick it up.  My "store" has a "no returns policy" and "all sales are final" policy.  A seller is never obligated to accept stuff back.  If Code Club were to show up and insist on handing me the goods back anyway by literally forcing them on me, that does not negate the payment for the goods I ended up receiving in my view.  On the other hand, if I were to seek to recover the goods and was successful in doing so, then I would drop any claim against PayPal to get money back since in effect I've accepted the return of the goods. My thinking anyway.

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Why not if it was mine to begin with and Code Club decides to hand our stuff back...it's not going anywheres and if they feel it's right to give it to us then why should I keep a bad credit on my name?  What Niru did was wrong and I understand now why it's hard for them to give items back...can't remember who went in details saying it could be hard as the silver used from whatever was sold and give to someone else and so on then I understand the headache in giving the items back...we all know there is a 1% chance of Code Club to give the items back...but I'm guessing I'm wrong to think that accepting the items back and be credited but whatever I don't care...as long I can get this whatever it's called to fix my bad credit I'm happy with that...you were one of the lucky ppl who didn't got scammed by Niru so I guess you can't understand our frustrations...sorry we don't want to be pestered by collection agency but why should we be held responsible over someone's Fraud?

Put yourself in our shoes for a minute and think and you'll see how WE feel about this!!!

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It may have been yours to begin with, but then you sold it to Niru. The question stated that you received your money for the sale from Paypal. Once a sale is complete, why would you think you have any ownership over the goods anymore? Could you image going to the supermarket, buying $100 worth of groceries from them, then the supermarket saying that even tho you paid for those groceries, they are keeping them because they were theirs to begin with? That is what you are expecting if you think you should have any ownership over the goods IF Paypal reimburses you.

 

If you've read this thread, you can see my sympathy for the people scammed many times. So not sure why you keep saying I don't see how you feel. I don't condone the scam, but I also don't believe that the people scammed deserve to be both paid for the goods, and still keep the goods.

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We've stated in the past, but I'm happy to clarify this as it is something that has been brought up a few times.

out of game player transactions (PayPal) are not against the rules, but this is essentially as far as we go with supporting it. Players are free to make arrangements to pay via PayPal and mention it as a payment option on the forums and ingame, but we cannot provide protection if the deal goes bad.

The reason for this is because it gets very murky very fast, items that have been traded on since the original sale, chargebacks, and as you've seen in this case, the credit card companies usually side with the buyer, not the seller.

For these reasons (as well as others) we are unable to return any items from past cases, nor will we be able to return items from future cases, to take action in these cases opens us up for a lot of liability.

In regards to this case Redd has made no attempt to claim the sold silver back from us, and I believe he is acting in good faith when advising other potential victims of the outcome he managed to reach with PayPal.

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I'm pretty sure no one wants to read this BS anymore, since I got conned the most from Neal/Niru, and this topic is turning into a debacle.. seriously just do us a favor mods and lock it. What red did doesn't work for everyone but it's solid advice for some of the European players. I wish it worked where I live personally, only way for me to take action is to legally sue Neal Hicks but that cost more money. Neal will get his eventually.

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On a side note: when people in this topic say CC company they mean Credit Card company and not Code Club AB.

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