Sold silver through paypal to Niru, now he disputes it

[Ondar 136]

What can I do?

 

Chat log:

Spoiler

Logging started 2016-04-17
[21:02:47] Chat opened.
[21:02:54] <Shaylie> I have 25 to sell
[21:03:01] <Niru> Hehe hello
[21:03:07] <Shaylie> howdy
[21:03:54] <Niru> Okay, that works with me! Where should I send 25e to?
[21:04:08] <Shaylie> ondarg@gmail.com
[21:06:00] <Niru> Sent
[21:06:06] <Niru> I'll send a CoD item for 25s here shortly too
[21:06:49] <Shaylie> Sent by Neal Hicks 25,00 EUR received tnx!
[21:07:55] <Niru> Hehe yay!
[21:10:07] <Niru> CoD sent! Should be there in less than ten minutes
[21:10:50] <Shaylie> waiting near mailbox [21:10:31] You try the 'grind' and succeed! [21:10:41] Yoyo increased by 0,0283 to 9,5151
[21:11:05] <Niru> Hehe cool
[21:16:22] <Niru> Woohoo, thank you :))
[21:16:28] <Shaylie> [21:16:15] The items are now available and you have been charged 25 silver and 1 copper.
[21:16:54] <Shaylie> I thabk you and you can spend some of them here: http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/127746-shaylies-workshop-skillers-speeders-weapons/
[21:17:02] <Niru> hehe
[21:17:04] <Niru> I'll take a look!
[21:17:08] <Niru> Thank you again
[21:17:12] <Shaylie> tnx
[21:19:16] <Shaylie> You may withdraw up to 83 copper and 91 iron. out of silvers now
[21:20:20] <Niru> Hehe Well, I do appreciate you selling me what you had :))
[21:20:53] <Shaylie> hope I can sell something fast
Logging started 2016-04-29
[20:20:38] Chat opened.
[20:21:06] <Shaylie> you wanna buy silvers? I have 43 (not 100 unfortunatelly)
[20:21:57] <Niru> Oh, yeah, that would be nice that's almost halfway there for me hehe
[20:22:04] <Niru> Where should I send payment?
[20:22:34] <Shaylie> 43E to a friend ondarg@gmail.com
[20:23:26] <Niru> hehe okay! Doing so now
[20:23:35] <Shaylie> great!
[20:24:42] <Niru> Sent
[20:24:46] <Niru> Should I CoD something to you?
[20:26:44] <Shaylie> Sent by Neal Hicks 43,00 EUR received! yeah, to me
[20:26:49] <Niru> Yay
[20:27:14] <Niru> Just sent something, and it should reach you in around 5 minutes
[20:30:08] <Shaylie> waiting by mailbox
[20:30:29] <Shaylie> [20:30:21] You try the 'sun' and succeed!
[20:31:03] <Niru> hehe yay
[20:32:58] <Niru> Wait, what is the "sun"?
[20:33:06] <Shaylie> should have anothe 20s+ by tomorrow (delivering stuff to xana)
[20:33:16] <Niru> Oh cool
[20:33:29] <Niru> If I am still looking then, I'd be interested! Please PM me, if you see me on
[20:33:31] <Shaylie> [20:32:57] You start to spin your yoyo. [20:33:01] The yoyo has good speed now.[20:33:06] You try the 'sun' and succeed![20:33:16] You try the 'grind' and succeed!
[20:33:42] <Shaylie> will do
[20:33:45] <Niru> ahhh hehe
[20:33:55] <Shaylie> [20:33:50] The items are now available and you have been charged 43 silver and 1 copper.
[20:36:44] <Niru> Thank you so much
[20:36:59] <Shaylie> yw and call again when need more
[20:37:08] <Niru> Definitely will do!
 

 

Thankfully Paypal replied:

 

We have completed our investigation of the transaction below and were
unable to find evidence of unauthorized access to the buyer’s account. This
case was denied to the buyer and no funds were recovered from your account.

 

Thanks all, this was some frightening experience

 

And hell continues for me too:

Spoiler

Chargeback opened: Case ID PP-004-861-307-435

We are writing to let you know that one of your buyers opened a chargeback with their card issuer. The buyer stated that they did not authorize this purchase.

Here are the details of this case: 

• Buyer's name: Neal Hicks
• Buyer's email: nealhicks@gmail.com
• Buyer's transaction ID: 70V5099533018611F
• Your transaction ID:19N96502GJ4930204
• Transaction date: 29 April 2016
• Transaction amount: 43,00 EUR
• Disputed amount: 52,89 USD

 

Edit:

And paypal charged me as if I loose already:

The disputed amount has now been debited from your PayPal account because of the following reason(s):

• This transaction was not marked as eligible for Seller Protection.

In addition, you have been debited a 16,00 EUR chargeback fee. 

 

Reply from paypal:

Thank you for taking the time to contact us. I have reviewed Chargeback case PP-004-861-307-435 for the €43.00 EUR payment, and I can confirm that the €16.00 EUR fee resulted from the payment's reversal. There are costs associated with processing chargebacks. When a PayPal payment is charged back, we're charged a fee by the credit card issuer. The fee is charged in all cases where a seller is not eligible for Seller Protection. Here are some requirements you need to meet to be covered by our Seller Protection:

• Make sure your item is 'Eligible' for Seller Protection by checking the transaction 'Details'
• The item must be a physical, tangible item
• Retain online trackable proof of delivery, like Royal Mail's recorded delivery (We require online tracking to confirm delivery)
• Send the item to the address on the transaction 'Details' page
• Provide a copy of the proof of postage of the parcel (This helps us ensure that the parcel has been sent to the right address)
• Only accept payments in full from a single PayPal account
• Respond to our requests for documentation and other information within the given timeframe

To learn more about our Seller Protection, click Legal at the bottom of any PayPal page, and then click User Agreement for PayPal Service.

We value your business and regret that you have had this experience.

And as expected, we lost:

Dear Ondrej Stasek,

As you know, we have been working with the buyer's credit card issuer to dispute the chargeback detailed below.

• Buyer's name: Neal Hicks
• Buyer's email: nealhicks@gmail.com
• Buyer's transaction ID: 70V5099533018611F
• Your transaction ID: 19N96502GJ4930204
• Transaction date: 29 April 2016
• Transaction amount: 43,00 EUR
• Disputed amount: 52,89 USD

The credit card issuer decided the chargeback in the buyer's favor as the buyer met the card issuer's requirements.

Although we cannot dispute this transaction any further, we encourage you to contact your buyer directly to reach a resolution.

Thank you for your patience during this process. We appreciate your business.

So:

Never again use paypal for virtual goods, even better never use paypal again at all.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Ondar

[Alyeska 2,621]

2 scale sets 2 months ago. 625€ got disputed today on paypal by the same person.

[bangzuvelis 549]

What happens is PP asks for a payer to prove that he/she has payed and has not received an item/service. He/she needs to provide some sort of evidence. If he/she payed and have received an item/service/online service etc., most likely due to the lack of evidence will not return money. If the evidence were falsified I probably dont need to explain what might happen. However, PP will most likely ask you to provide some sort of evidence that a buyer has received bought item/service/etc.  

 

Ofc, every case is different and errors do happen as well as guilty part sometimes wins.

Edited May 18, 2016 by bangzuvelis

[Ondar 136]

I just sent them this chat log. We will see if its enough.

[Kegan 3,926]

Yep i got a hit for 50s/$50 usd that i had sold him too. This is also the friend that Niki always talks about too i believe. (not that this has anything to do with this but just so everyone knows)

[Banzai 664]

lol. keep careful logs and screenshots and ask the person to leave a much detailed note (what it is, when agreed upon, how delivered etc) as possible when sending payment. make sure you have evidence that said item was definitely delivered. PayPal might not know what Wurm mechanics are, but even small event logs like "Item will be sent in 10 min" etc etc will help sway the case. 

 

People say don't worry but I've been dealing with people who disputed payments on EpicNPC, Scythe, and Playerauctions and there were times the scammers won the case. Build a solid profile of yourself as an honest merchant (past transactions work too) and again, bring up as much of the evidence as possible. Also note that the Paypal case manager will look at the other party's (Niru's) activity and see a lot of previous/open disputes. This will bring up a lot of red flags and hopefully the person will be paypal banned

 

GL!

 

 

Upon further inspection of the thread, it seems like he opened a lot of cases today. This guy is going to be paypal banned. Those who are dealing with the dispute should link this thread to the case manager. 

Edited May 18, 2016 by Banzai

[Ayluin 170]

When I sold items and avatar services for Neopets through paypal, I'd make sure there were logs indicating what the transaction was, what price we agreed to, showing the service was delivered in-game along and through my online portal for orders and created a confirmation page the user had to accept before getting the account back. Although that doesn't necessarily work for selling items, the more documentation you have, the better when the party tries to charge back. I definitely agree with Banzai that if the disputer that's trying to scam has a bunch of disputes open at the same time, this reflects negatively on the buyer and usually the seller wins the dispute. The most common issue I had with paypal was their push back about not using services/merchant options rather than sending money as a gift but that has seem to died down over the past few years.

 

Hope everything goes well on your disputes and justice is served!

[Kegan 3,926]

Here is my chat log with my email taken out but the rest is here maybe a GM can look into this for us?
 

Spoiler

Logging started 2016-03-22
[20:13:49] <Argustin> Have you sold the 1g yet?
[20:14:02] <Kegan> yes sorry
[20:14:09] <Kegan> umm i have 50s more
[20:14:17] <Argustin> No worries! Oh, I would like 50s, in that case
[20:14:20] <Argustin> If you're okay with parting with it
[20:14:39] <Kegan> yes i am okay it would be $50 usd
[20:14:45] <Kegan> my paypal is..
[20:14:49] <Argustin> Where should I send payment? oh okay. USD, not euros?
[20:14:58] <Kegan> *MY EMAIL TAKEN OUT*
[20:15:11] <Kegan> ues usd you pay any fees
[20:15:14] <Argustin> Sending in a few minutes! ^^
[20:15:17] <Argustin> Sure thing
[20:15:20] <Kegan> okay
[20:20:23] <Argustin> Just sent the payment
[20:20:45] <Argustin> I'll CoD something here in a minute
[20:20:48] <Kegan> yes got it cod me something for the 50s
[20:21:57] <Argustin> Will do ^^ I don't know if you'll feel like it, but if you could let me know whenever you have more to sell,
[20:22:08] <Argustin> I'd appreciate it Actually, my main is Niru, just to say. You'll get the CoD from him
[20:23:11] <Kegan> i will write your name down i have some about this time evey month
[20:23:31] <Argustin> Thanks I do appreciate that
[20:23:37] <Argustin> I just sent the CoD item from Niru
[20:23:55] <Kegan> okay cool what was the time on it?
[20:24:57] <Argustin> It should be under ten minutes
[20:25:05] <Kegan> okay cool
[20:25:22] <Kegan> [20:25:18] The items are now available and you have been charged 50 silver and 1 copper.
[20:25:31] <Kegan> thanks i will let you know when i have more
[20:27:01] <Argustin> Thank you so much ^^
[20:27:12] <Argustin> Yeah I'll be happy to buy from you
[20:28:13] <Argustin> I am noting your name down also
[20:28:20] <Argustin> Do you mind if I add you to friends?
[20:28:53] <Kegan> sure
[20:29:50] <Argustin> I sent from Niru
[20:30:00] <Kegan> got is
[20:30:05] <Kegan> it*
[20:30:09] <Argustin> Yay

 

 

[Bibbidyboop 13]

Same here...

 

 

Which option did you guys respond on? Its asking for tracking information or delivery proof.

[GoldFever 299]

I might as well add mine.  Got hit for 80 Euro today.  It would seem PayPal starts by taking the money back before they sort out what to do.

 

Chat log GoldFever for March 28th. 

 

Spoiler

Logging started 2016-03-28
[09:33:56] <Goldfever> Hi
[09:34:21] <Goldfever> I'm awake now.  Not in position to transfer sleeps though, Been out cherry picking
[09:34:33] <Niru> Hehe, no worries! And hello
[09:35:33] <Niru> I just transferred 80 e to you
[09:35:44] <Niru> Just so you are aware
[09:35:50] <Goldfever> Thx for that.
[09:36:07] <Niru> Np!
[09:36:10] <Goldfever> I will certainly get you your sleeps in a timely manner, but got to travel to you.
[09:36:18] <Niru> Aye, it is np at all
[09:36:21] <Niru> I am not in a huge rush with it
[09:36:26] <Niru> Should I CoD an item to you also?
[09:36:27] <Goldfever> If you want the silver now, just mail me something or can do it all at once.
[09:36:54] <Goldfever> Could trade both sleeps and silver at same time, up to you which you prefer.
[09:36:59] <Niru> Hehe okay I'll CoD you something for 56 silver, in that case, and regarding the sleep powder, it can just be whenever you can manage getting out here
[09:37:14] <Goldfever> Most appreciated then.  Thanks.
[09:37:36] <Goldfever> Picked 600 cherries for transmutation liquid.  Wanted to have some on hand.
[09:37:51] <Goldfever> Will do apples and lemons as well when that season rolls around.
[09:38:07] <Niru> Cool Could you do a transmutation for one of my tiles, possibly? To clay?
[09:38:30] <Goldfever> Sure can, in time.
[09:39:15] <Niru> Yay
[09:40:44] <Goldfever> To make clay you need apples it seems.  Apple season should be up in a week or two I think.
[09:42:03] <Niru> Ah, I see
[09:42:21] <Goldfever> Thanks Neal, got the Paypal funds.
[09:43:58] <Niru> Glad to hear they went through okay
[10:23:50] <Goldfever> Picked up the woodscrap
[10:23:51] AFK for about 15 minutes!
[10:27:43] <Niru> Great! Thanks for the silver
[10:28:45] <Goldfever> Thank you.  I'm good till Jan 30 2017 before I have to start the resub process again on my toons.  Have 3.
[10:29:39] <Niru> That's great news
[10:32:32] <Goldfever> Still got to work on my deed funding a bit.  Have a number of them, so I'm still looking for work
[10:33:25] <Niru> You wouldn't happen to have more sleep powders, would you? I could always buy them from you to help
[10:33:43] <Goldfever> Nope, just the 24.
[10:39:49] <Niru> Just thought I would check
[11:06:28] <Niru> I am logging out for a little, but I'll be back later
[11:08:20] <Goldfever> laters then
[11:08:20] <System> Niru is not currently available, please try again later.
[15:54:03] <Goldfever> Finally got everyone together.  Sending GoldMiner over your way.
[16:01:47] <Niru> Woohoo, thanks!
[16:02:12] <Niru> I think you have permissions! I hope so. I am actually in Pristine at the moment, so I can't check. But I think you do
[16:02:21] <Niru> Oh, I'm an idiot
[16:02:25] <Niru> I have an alt there that can accept the trade
[16:18:45] <Goldfever> heh
[16:18:59] <Goldfever> well, unless your alt is on North Indy, too late now.
[16:20:09] <Goldfever> Well, I need to hand them to you somewhere.  Can't drop sleeps.
[16:20:23] <Goldfever> So, where you want me to go?
[16:21:02] <Goldfever> Pristine?
[16:27:08] <Niru> Xanadu is great My deed, at S25
[16:27:34] <Goldfever> ok, good wind for that.  About 30 minutes I'm thinking.
[16:28:17] <Niru> Okay, great! Thanks, and sorry for the slow responses
[16:30:45] <Goldfever> no problem
[17:19:25] <Goldfever> No matter how hard I tried to get to the edge, it insisted in putting me more towards the middle, not a huge amount, but not right by the island either.
[17:19:40] <Goldfever> Plus the wind is finally shifting so only 1/2 speed now.
[17:23:45] <Niru> Gotcha ~
[17:23:48] <Niru> Thanks for the update
[17:23:52] <Niru> Let me know when you have arrived and I
[17:23:55] <Niru> I'll log in my alt
[17:34:41] <Goldfever> GoldMiner has just entered S25 so only 5-10 minutes out now.
[17:39:23] <Niru> Great
[17:39:24] <Goldfever> Your place just rendered so about there now.
[17:45:57] <Goldfever> You logging in?
[17:52:10] <Niru> Ah yes, sorry!
[17:53:11] <Goldfever> You Nekocat I assume?
[17:56:57] <Niru> I am Nekocat
[17:57:00] <Niru> And sorry for the delays, again
[17:57:22] <Goldfever> great, good stuff.  And no problem.
[17:57:32] <Niru> I appreciate it :))
[17:58:01] <Goldfever> That concludes today's business then.  A pleasure as always!
[17:58:09] <Niru> Likewise!
[17:58:15] <Niru> I hope you can sail back in relatively short time
[17:58:29] <Goldfever> Going hunting.
[17:58:37] <Goldfever> Going to log for a little bit now anyway.

 

[Kegan 3,926]

1 minute ago, Bibbidyboop said:

Same here...

 

 

Which option did you guys respond on? Its asking for tracking information or delivery proof.

I just attached a copy of my chat log in the right format and sent a little note but i dont know what else to do really this is my first one ever. 

[Bibbidyboop 13]

Issue is, i have reformatted since... Didnt think this would ever happen. Any ideas on what to do?

[Ondar 136]

I just clicked "Resolve" and stated that I have electronic proof, tracking number 0, other company - wurmonline.com and to message on the bottom I copied chat log.

[Ondar 136]

2 minutes ago, Bibbidyboop said:

Issue is, i have reformatted since... Didnt think this would ever happen. Any ideas on what to do?

I just put all my logs to an archive on dropbox

[Kegan 3,926]

Did the guy buy any accounts? I know that Niki was looking for a high priced priest and i am guessing that this is the same guy that the priest was for too. I guess we will have to see if a GM can do anything with the items in question, 

Edited May 18, 2016 by Kegan

[Hashirama 870]

-€ 213.77 EUR

I see this today when I log in my paypal. Sold him a deed and bunch of other stuff that he charged me back for months later (today or yesterday) i think.
Same guy, here's a screenshot

 

Almost everyone knows that I owned waterdeep on pristine. My location on forums still says "waterdeep" caus i forgot to remove it. I sold that deed plus a bunch of other stuff inside the deed like hota statues and stuff. This is the payment for all that and after some months am charged back by this guy just like everyone else posting on this thread.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Hashirama

[Xallo 2,599]

Doubt PayPal will make a big deal about it. The guy has like 2000E+ in charge back from 10 people.

 

I'll post up my logs later and send info as well.

 

Just annoying PayPal deducts money (-625E for me) from your account during the process, but at least it didn't withdraw from my bank and force an overdraft...

Edited May 18, 2016 by Xallo

[Bibbidyboop 13]

Yeah same here Xallo, ive got a negative ballance of £483 ... Paypal didnt even bother to ask us first!

[bangzuvelis 549]

2 minutes ago, Xallo said:

Doubt PayPal will make a big deal about it. The guy has like 2000E+ in charge back from 10 people.

 

I'll post up my logs later and send info as well.

 

Just annoying PayPal deducts money (-625E for me) from your account during the process, but at least it didn't withdraw from my bank and force an overdraft...

if your balance is negative - it will in 2-3 days, since PP has a direct debit with your bank.

[williamwierd 390]

Just a comment, but I find it's best to do business with an unverified paypal account. As long as you spend the money and keep the balance low theres next to zero risk involved.

Edited July 11, 2016 by williamwierd

[Jaz 2,666]

Can simply be simply a stolen Paypal account.login. The real owner realized all the payments today. Should be no difference in regard to dropping the chargeback though.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Jaz

[Kegan 3,926]

What is he trying to say to Paypal that makes him think he will just get all the money back? Is he trying to say that his account got hacked or something ? 

 

I guess we will have to wait and see this is my first dispute, lol

[Bibbidyboop 13]

Can a GM please get on this and freeze all assets associated with this player?

[GoldFever 299]

it is not clear to me if he (or the real owner if account was stolen) is dealing with the credit card company.  Paypal website says chargebacks only happen if a credit card was used and the cc company takes the money back from PayPal, hence why they put a freeze on the funds on our account.  In other words, it is not PayPal who decides if we "win" or not, but the cc company???

[Banzai 664]

No, it's PayPal who decides. The charge back comes from the credit card company but the verdict is made by PayPal. 

 

If PayPal provides the evidence that the credit card holder is indeed a scammer (which he is) then the credit card company will forfeit the charge back and destroy the guy's credit. 

 

If it's within the cc company's judgement then PayPal wouldn't be in business. 

Edited May 18, 2016 by Banzai