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Odynn

Shattering, the bane of channeling

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45 minutes ago, Evilreaper said:

but unless we can raise ql cap or remove the ease of top end items (and or crafters) prices will continue to fall steadily and wurm will remain stagnant

 

Sorry but Wurm is not its economy, that economy is an expression of the activities that occur within it, don't like it?  then work to change the activities.

 

That "economy" isn't stagnant its just reached saturation and the only thing that will change it will be player actions. Having the dev team try and "fix" it will only cause problems because there is nothing there for them to fix.

 

Also any village which treats a new player in such a way  that they get scared off from the game after a couple of weeks..... thats not a village I'd want to be a part of. If someone new comes to our neck of the woods we tend to focus them on the journey and how much fun it is, not the high level goodies at the end.. Once they buy into the community then its likely they'll stay, just buying..... doesn't work.

 

 

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Aye, lets keep that thread on topic, it's not about the economic or shattering (which sucks anyway), it's about the 1% hardcoded shattering on any failed casts which is a nonsense according to the late game changes.

 

Economy is messed up right : plenty of thread around for that. Newbies got a hard time, right, plenty of others thread around for that too. You believe you know everything about how wurm economy should work and why we need to destroy items randomly for economics sake, make your own thread. But please, stop derailing or trolling that thread.

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9 hours ago, Odynn said:

Aye, lets keep that thread on topic, it's not about the economic or shattering (which sucks anyway), it's about the 1% hardcoded shattering on any failed casts which is a nonsense according to the late game changes.

 

Economy is messed up right : plenty of thread around for that. Newbies got a hard time, right, plenty of others thread around for that too. You believe you know everything about how wurm economy should work and why we need to destroy items randomly for economics sake, make your own thread. But please, stop derailing or trolling that thread.

 

It's a 1% chance on an already low chance of getting a <0 cast if you have a good channeling priest.

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1 hour ago, Bix said:

 

It's a 1% chance on an already low chance of getting a <0 cast if you have a good channeling priest.

 

95+ channeling - 95+ QL items you have around 5 to 6 % chance of failing your casts which is easily proved with the monte carlo method (and the data pulled from WU code). We can deduce around 0.05 % risk of shattering due to that tiny bit of code. Far from the almost 0 when you have said good channeling priest.

 

Give a bit of variation and you end up with an added risk of 0.03 to 0.1% of shattering based on nothing else than pure randomness, no matter the item QL, skill or time invested.

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5 hours ago, Odynn said:

 

 

95+ channeling - 95+ QL items you have around 5 to 6 % chance of failing your casts which is easily proved with the monte carlo method (and the data pulled from WU code). We can deduce around 0.05 % risk of shattering due to that tiny bit of code. Far from the almost 0 when you have said good channeling priest.

 

Give a bit of variation and you end up with an added risk of 0.03 to 0.1% of shattering based on nothing else than pure randomness, no matter the item QL, skill or time invested.

 

That sounds reasonable for the amount of benefit you can get out of casts.

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I'd just be happy with rare / supreme / fantastic items being shatter proof. I've shattered a few regular items and whilst it's frustrating at least with some effort I can replace them, always worried casting on rare / supreme items even with circa 97 channeling as if you blow it up it's not really something you can replace in a hour or two. I've only blown up one rare item (longsword) so far and it was my own so no big loss I guess but it's still a worry.

 

IMHO shattering does not achieve what it's intended anyway and should be removed entirely, priests with high enough channeling are not too bothered by it outside of casting on dragon armour or rare items, the only thing shattering does is make noob priests useless, I remember back before the religion fix it wasn't uncommon to have priest players with low-ish channeling constantly casting as they got favor - even on their own drake armour, sure they had pretty much 0,1% chance to actually cast something decent but at least they were somewhat productive as they would get at least one good cast after a few hours and not have blown everything in their inventory up.

 

Now what we have is players taking their items to a select few mega priests to have their items enchanted because they don't trust the lower skilled priests not to blow them up, works alright for me but sucks for the people with the 60- 70 channeling priests who SHOULD be useful after putting in the effort to grind channeling so high (not a easy skill, very resource intensive too)

Edited by Gavin

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While I do agree that 60-70 channeling still blew up alot of items.  I didn't blow up as many as when I was 30 channeling.  Nor do I blow up as much now that I'm over 90 channeling.  Somehow it seems right to me that I'm better now that I am higher skilled.  Do I think that I am given some items to enchant that they wouldn't trust someone smaller with?  Yea.  That doesn't mean that someone with lower skills aren't useful though.

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+1, having recently become a priest on a character, it is one of the most frustrating things to try and cast an object then have it gone from your inventory. All the hard work of another player put into imping something and poof, its gone. Or the work you put in previously or on another character. Please remove, lower chance, or just make the item take some amount of damage. 

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The changes they are requesting will have little effect on newer priests. Most shatters from low channeling priests is from the quality checks. The complaint is about the 1% of all failed casts shattering at any quality.

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On 1/13/2016 at 1:40 AM, asdf said:

 

Some more numbers: (using a 60 difficulty spell, combined chances to shatter over the many casts required to get the X power, assuming 90ql items)
 

  80 chan 90 chan 95 chan 99 chan
chance to fail 11.5% 6.5% 4.5% 3.5%
70+ power 1% 0.2% 0.2% 0.1%
80+ power 2.7% 0.8% 0.4% 0.3%
90+ power 8.5% 2.8% 1.3% 0.8%

 

I really love the chart and it gives some visualization to potential shattering, but if I recall correctly (studies done from people smarter than me), odds are not cumulative.  For instance, if on average it takes you 10 casts with an 80 channel priest, to achieve a 70 power cast, resulting in a 1% "chance" to shatter, does it mean an 80 channel priest casting 1000 times would 100% shatter the item?  No.  Every single roll of the RNG/dice/slot machine is a brand new roll and has it's own chance.  This is a huge flaw that the casinos use to lure people into devising clever systems to beat the odds.

 

Flip a coin.  Your odds are 50% heads and 50% tails.  If you flip the coin twice, your odds are not 100 percent of getting 1 heads and 1 tails.

 

There are so many statistically improbable things that happen and people get in an uproar on how the system is rigged, or someone cheated.  Odds are (chuckle) it is just some really bad luck.

 

Sorry, this is a bit off topic, but for me, I think there should ALWAYS be risk, when trying to make the best of the best items in the game.  I love the nail biting feeling I get casting LT on a rare 2h weapon.  Do I stick with 60, or risk pushing for a 70+?  If we eliminate the risk, everyone will have 90+ of everything on everything.  Suddenly that rare monster weapon that used to sell for 25 is now common and selling under 10s.

 

KEEP the shatter risk  Please.

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the table is actually computed with that in mind, yes

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the chances in the table for 90+ channeling are quite acceptable in my view - although my best priest is 78 chan yet :D

There should be some low but visible chance of shatter - I stand with Wurmhole on the assumption that otherwise only 90+ casts will have a (much smaller than now) value on the market.

 

Heck, this is why my supreme tin shovel is not 104woa... I've stopped at 69 for now.

Edited by Jaz

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11 hours ago, Kelody said:

The changes they are requesting will have little effect on newer priests. Most shatters from low channeling priests is from the quality checks. The complaint is about the 1% of all failed casts shattering at any quality.

If they lower/ remove shattering I believe it helps all priests new and old. Unless this is one messed up world where shattering at low channeling is a good thing. You sir are not right. And I have been casting on 60ql items. ... forget it, not going to de-rail a thread. Shattering in my opinion is just one of those dumb wurm mechanics. You don't see a blacksmith do : [some time]: You fail to improve large anvil, it shatters. Why should it with priests? I have not a clue, other than wurmlogic. 

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Don't forget the other side of the coin:you don't see an 50 skill blacksmith to make a 90ql item

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i don't believe in removing all kind of shattering, remove a bit the goal of pushing a priest higher. But the hardcoded value push a 1/1 000 000 chance to 1/ 1 000, which is somewhat way too high for higher tier priests.

 

The idea of making rare+ items shatter proof is interesting, knowing it's where that hardcoded shattering hurt the most. Can be something like that (1 rarity being rare, 2 supreme, 3 fantastic), gonna have to double check my code though, been a while i digged in WU spaghetti.

   if (power < -target.getQualityLevel() || (power < 0.0 && Server.rand.nextInt(100) == 0 && target.getRarity() < 1)) {
            performer.getCommunicator().sendNormalServerMessage("The " + target.getName() + " emits a strong deep sound of resonance, then shatters!");

alternatively we can just remove the hardcoded failrate "(power < 0.0 && Server.rand.nextInt(100) == 0 )" or make it harder to fail by changing it to something like that : Server.rand.nextInt(10000) == 0.

 

I still believe channeling in it's whole deserve some love and hardcoded RNG based events are only punishing. Anyway, more food for thoughts.

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5 hours ago, Jaz said:

Don't forget the other side of the coin:you don't see an 50 skill blacksmith to make a 90ql item

Personally I'd be happier if low skill casters couldn't get those high power casts and have to skill up more if they want better casts.

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On 13/2/2016 at 8:14 PM, Gaeron said:

Personally I'd be happier if low skill casters couldn't get those high power casts and have to skill up more if they want better casts.

 

hence why i ask for a rework of enchanting on it's whole, right now a 70 channeling priest will pull out high cast as easilly as a 90+ priest... within a reasonable shattering risk.

 

Why because the code doesn't work properly at high skill, look at coal making for example, it's the same thing, high skill will give you average results, the hardcoded shatter risk being just another slap in the face for the channeling skill.

 

Spoiler

High skill being messed up :

Cordage making, average at 40Ql with 97 QL wemp - 98 ropemaking - 95QL ropetool

Coal making, average at 70 with 90 coalmaking, 92+ QL mats, and as low as 40QL

 

The way the game is working, you need to fail (0-40 / 100) to get skill gain. When you aim for high QL / power with everything on your side, there is no point for the game to randomly punish you.

 

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I have another angle to add. In my case, I'm smithing items up to 85QL and working with a 97 channeling priest. We split 50-50 on everything we sell. Out of everything we've sold so far, we had one item shatter. Others took damage but that's easy to repair. Nonetheless, a future shatter could happen on a rare, or a supreme so from a financial standpoint, we both stand to lose money if that were to happen. It's a risk vs. reward situation. Regardless, losing 30 silver on a shattered supreme for example, would really suck. I mean that's 15 silver converted to my currency is like throwing a 20 dollar bill in the garbage. I don't know about you but from a business standpoint, that's not acceptable.

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16 hours ago, Neville said:

I have another angle to add. In my case, I'm smithing items up to 85QL and working with a 97 channeling priest. We split 50-50 on everything we sell. Out of everything we've sold so far, we had one item shatter. Others took damage but that's easy to repair. Nonetheless, a future shatter could happen on a rare, or a supreme so from a financial standpoint, we both stand to lose money if that were to happen. It's a risk vs. reward situation. Regardless, losing 30 silver on a shattered supreme for example, would really suck. I mean that's 15 silver converted to my currency is like throwing a 20 dollar bill in the garbage. I don't know about you but from a business standpoint, that's not acceptable.

 

You realize that part of that 30s is the risk of shatter? If supremes wouldn't shatter then enchanted supremes would sell for less...

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3 hours ago, bdew said:

You realize that part of that 30s is the risk of shatter? If supremes wouldn't shatter then enchanted supremes would sell for less...

 

blank supremes sells for 30s... enchanted one barely sell for the blank price and enchants one. Supreme+ and moon metal weapons are the worse, specially when you have ingame options *cough* metalic liquid *cough cough* that are not working. Or the shatter resistance rune doing ###### compared to that hardcoded risk.

 

Yes shatter is a risk, though channeling is the only skill where you can utterly destroy an item while improving  it (no others do that) and where your skill doesn't matter. 90+ casts are a glorious pita, no matter if you have 70 channeling or 99 (success rate difference are a few %).

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i don't care about money, i care about getting the reward of actually not blowing junk up after hating myself for grinding channeling

 

a random thing that forces a failure is pretty much like saying grats on 90 longsword but you failed to stab a cow so you can swing at yourself and either miss, damage your arm, or die

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Shattering is very tough to swallow.  I worked hard to get just under 95 channeling.  But at least in my experience, if an item is higher level, I do not tend to shatter as much.  I say as much because I have shattered 2 80q swords after I hit 90 in channeling.  It is hard to tell a customer that you are sorry this happened.

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Oh my goodness... so many cry-babies. 60 difficulty channeling spells have the potential to double your skill gain or action speed (thats my experience with them, i dont know exactly calculations). People are complaining about losing 1/40 tools? I would only say that items with rarity should ignore the hard 1% in the code, but not regular items.

 

+.5, Idc about rarity value in economy, just enjoying my time. So +1 to Rare->Fantastic items ignoring the 1% and -1 to regular items ignoring the 1%

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9 hours ago, Yiraia said:

Oh my goodness... so many cry-babies. 60 difficulty channeling spells have the potential to double your skill gain or action speed (thats my experience with them, i dont know exactly calculations). People are complaining about losing 1/40 tools? I would only say that items with rarity should ignore the hard 1% in the code, but not regular items.

 

+.5, Idc about rarity value in economy, just enjoying my time. So +1 to Rare->Fantastic items ignoring the 1% and -1 to regular items ignoring the 1%

 

You're not thinking in the right ways.  If someone lost their 50th pickaxe it doesn't really matter that much, it can be replaced

But now imagine you saved up/bought/whatever your glimmersteel helm, and your drake or scale armor pieces, and they're all imped to 90ql, and you shatter one of them not because you didn't grind enough channeling, but literally because the game said you should always be able to shatter

 

not even a what if, our bicycle priest with 94 channeling blew up a villager's 90ql glimmer helm

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