General Balance Discussion

[headhunter 100]

• Everything you pick up should be mailable

Mail fee should be lower, 10/20c per item is stupid for a game which is so spread out

Mailing liquids needs to be balanced. You're currently charged 10/20c PER KG plus the container, its beyond stupid.

The ability to move items from container to container by 100, no but how much space you have in your inventory.

We can store cooked meat filets, but we can't cook fish filets and store them?

Banners and flags are a HUGE pain to transport/store, they fit into pretty much nothing.

[Klaa 4,872]

Hrm I agree everything that can be picked up should be mailable, with the exception of certain items, such as artifacts.

However, the mailing fee should stay high on many items. Not a huge fan of systems that bypass travel and cargo-hauling.

[joedobo 1,187]

Well physical size is the reason things don't fit in many cases, it can fail because an item is too tall or wide.

Of course if it was in real life you might have been tempted to play an advanced game of tetris by flipping said items over on the side, that is not done in Wurm, except when using the load action to load onto boats. 

 

This is surprising. I very much doubted that Wurm would assess physical dimensions of objects and the see if any one is too large for a container. Interesting indeed! Its not 3d after all.

I"m hopping this "size" deal is a property of containers and not individual exceptions. For example, A cauldron won't fit in the oven because a size property is too large for the oven...or because the oven was told an individual object - a cauldron - won't go in it.

 

 

Lets say a plank's largest dimension is 3m (the length). And I'll take a wild guess that a large chest holds objects up to 1.5m. Here a plank won't fit because 3m is larger then 1.5m.

 

Is there any way we can get a tool to tells us this? It would be very useful if we had a tool to get the exact outside volume, largest dimension, and if its a container the internal volume and the largest single dimension it can hold. I"m not a fan of adding more stuff to examine. A ruler for example.

 

 

 

edit   3000th post! 

Edited July 22, 2015 by joedobo

[headhunter 100]

Hrm I agree everything that can be picked up should be mailable, with the exception of certain items, such as artifacts.

However, the mailing fee should stay high on many items. Not a huge fan of systems that bypass travel and cargo-hauling.

 

I agree but it should be a flat rate for all servers at the least. For me to mail 2kg of dye cross server it costs 60c. Its stupid. 

[Ulost 144]

No travelling between PvP and PvE servers in any form. Perhaps mailing items could be tolerated.

[Darkren 15]

Concerning Nahjo:

(Full disclosure: I am a priest of Magranon.) Nahjo is overpowered. Incredible spell set and favored favor items. It would be unfair to the players who have jumped ship and converted to Nahjo to outright nerf them now. I can offer two suggestions:

1) Buff the other gods. More competitive favor gain and spell list. (It probably wouldn't take very much.)

2) Rebalance Nahjo in some way. Offer priests a one-off chance to change their deity without losing their faith (as was offered during the Libila/Wild->Chaos transition).

Edited July 22, 2015 by Darkren

[bloodmaster 318]

One change that really is a big problem on PvP servers is the fact that unfinished planned walls and floors will block several catapult shots which makes it annoying to remove structures that took no time to make. The biggest issue comes with planned floors as 1. They can become bugged and take more than 100 damage (I have been told this is being worked on but still no fix 2 weeks later from being told) and 2. If you have a person standing in the building they can just keep putting down a planned floor instantly and it is impossible to actually hit the walls and take down anything.

 

The easiest fix to this is just make anything unfinished, both walls and floors, not block catapult shots so that you can actually hit the finished walls and floors and have to work to protect your buildings.

 

I have suggested this and it got positive remarks from quite a few people in my thread so it is seen as an annoying problem for other people. (http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/126668-planned-floorsopenings-and-unfinished-wall-plans-should-give-no-protection/)

[Corrax 19]

First just some opposing thoughts of meditation:

 

1) I think its too easy to gain skill in meditation. It was made as long-term reward for long-term players, right? Then it should really be harder to grind.

2) Enlightening should be removed completely, no shortcuts in this skill please.

3) Current bonus skills are very smart and work greatly and in different purposes which is good. I see no need to remove or modify current ones, but i agree as some others suggested above, to add new bonus skills for later levels.

 

 

Second, i like to state that game is generally made too easy:

 

1) Whats the point of farming if one player can feed whole server? Where is the survival part? Getting food should be made alot harder and longer process. Please make use of wurm wonderful seasons! Crops shouldn't grow during winter, thats why we have FSB. Add pests and natural disasters to threaten and reduce crops (ie dryness, flood). This would give nice boost to economy as well. Lot more trading opportunities. More value to food releated skills. And this would mostly remove that mindless HFC grinding.

2) Fighting and combat is too easy in PVE servers, i'd like to see more dangers in the wilderness. Maybe naturally pack animals attacking and moving in packs? Hidden/stealth attacks, ie mountain lion jumping in the neck from tree? Wounds should heal more slower, reflecting real world healing. Also maybe add fractured bones to wounds too and make them heal very slow and require more healing skills to treat? Maybe even add some ghosts/spirits/skeletons at abandoned deeds and graves, killable only with special weapons (ie. silver, fa-enchanted etc)!

3) Tools should wear out more, they now last too long and this is bad for economy. Maybe compensate higher wear with new durability enchament? Maybe add more variety in different metals durability too?

4) Trees. Eh, are you serious tree grows overaged in 10 days? I think this need serious rebalancing! Trees should take wurm years to grow overaged. Just think of the possibilities of this. Trees would become highly valued farming product, it would boost economy greatly and give possibility to players to specialise to new topic in game. This would seriously reduce insane new ship spamming and give them more value too. Skills releated to trees (WC,Forestry,SHB, Carp etc) would be more valued. Also this adds more survival part to game.

5) Creating items is too easy, it should fail like it did before. Now it seems to me that everyone is able to create anything in game with just tiny effort to skill and materials. This should be balanced. Material loss in fails and maybe return unfinished items too.

6) Rares should be more rare and difficult to get. Not so easily exploitable as it is now. I know some players who just keep making rares more and more every day. I think its not working as intended.

7) More difficulty. If you allow me to say this just little exaggeratedly, i think game feels now more and more like a nice walk in a garden during midsummer! I think this should still be mmo, not single-player-do-it-all-alone-in-a-week game. No more minecraft here please! I wish more survial. More being starved and eaten by wolves in the woods

 

Thanks!

 

 

- Cormax

[ErikN 452]

This is surprising. I very much doubted that Wurm would assess physical dimensions of objects and the see if any one is too large for a container. Interesting indeed! Its not 3d after all.

I"m hopping this "size" deal is a property of containers and not individual exceptions. For example, A cauldron won't fit in the oven because a size property is too large for the oven...or because the oven was told an individual object - a cauldron - won't go in it.

 

 

Lets say a plank's largest dimension is 3m (the length). And I'll take a wild guess that a large chest holds objects up to 1.5m. Here a plank won't fit because 3m is larger then 1.5m.

 

Is there any way we can get a tool to tells us this? It would be very useful if we had a tool to get the exact outside volume, largest dimension, and if its a container the internal volume and the largest single dimension it can hold. I"m not a fan of adding more stuff to examine. A ruler for example.

 

 

 

edit   3000th post! 

 

Well after a quick glance on the Cauldron vs Oven issue, I think it might be that the cauldron is simply bigger in two dimensions then the oven's container volume would allow. It's not by much, 10 cm by the looks of it. 

Back when I was working on adding the load/unload stuff I made it possible to separate the size of an object from how much volume they could contain, so it's possible to re-size the ovens container volume without affecting where the oven will fit when loading it. Or if we wanted to, shrink the Cauldron without changing how much it can contain.

 

As for the ruler idea, if anything that could help find those items still out there that have very incorrect values, I have encountered a few of those before and changed those to more expected values. (Most of those was incredibly huge when I found them, like the Knarr was a couple of kilometers long.)

[Nicrolis 980]

I made it possible to separate the size of an object from how much volume they could contain, so it's possible to re-size the ovens container volume without affecting where the oven will fit when loading it. Or if we wanted to, shrink the Cauldron without changing how much it can contain.

o.o Time lord?

[Zekezor 3,188]

Well after a quick glance on the Cauldron vs Oven issue, I think it might be that the cauldron is simply bigger in two dimensions then the oven's container volume would allow. It's not by much, 10 cm by the looks of it. 

Back when I was working on adding the load/unload stuff I made it possible to separate the size of an object from how much volume they could contain, so it's possible to re-size the ovens container volume without affecting where the oven will fit when loading it. Or if we wanted to, shrink the Cauldron without changing how much it can contain.

 

As for the ruler idea, if anything that could help find those items still out there that have very incorrect values, I have encountered a few of those before and changed those to more expected values. (Most of those was incredibly huge when I found them, like the Knarr was a couple of kilometers long.)

Go take a look at fishs... Their weight comparable to size doesnt seem right... (tiny low weight catfishes tend to be higher volume than heavy weight marlins)

Edited July 22, 2015 by Zekezor

[Brynden 69]

im guess thats the same problem that causes some items not to be able to fit in altars,like pelts.

[Moridrid 18]

Make more dirt go into a dredge.. Really annoying having to empty it after every two dirts.

[Zekezor 3,188]

Make more dirt go into a dredge.. Really annoying having to empty it after every two dirts.

or... you know... just put the dirt in the inventory instead of a tiny volumed dredge... or even better, put it in the actual ship...

Edited July 22, 2015 by Zekezor

[joedobo 1,187]

Well after a quick glance on the Cauldron vs Oven issue, I think it might be that the cauldron is simply bigger in two dimensions then the oven's container volume would allow. It's not by much, 10 cm by the looks of it. 

Back when I was working on adding the load/unload stuff I made it possible to separate the size of an object from how much volume they could contain, so it's possible to re-size the ovens container volume without affecting where the oven will fit when loading it. Or if we wanted to, shrink the Cauldron without changing how much it can contain.

 

As for the ruler idea, if anything that could help find those items still out there that have very incorrect values, I have encountered a few of those before and changed those to more expected values. (Most of those was incredibly huge when I found them, like the Knarr was a couple of kilometers long.)

-- "in two dimensions then the oven's container volume"...Did you mean the oven container's max size? A good example to explain this is a plank could probably be cut into blocks and easily fit in a backpack. The plank's volume is small. But its size is too long for the backpack so it doesn't fit.

 

-- "I made it possible to separate the size of an object from how much volume they could contain"  Wogic! joking aside this is probably a good idea as long as we can explain things to players.

 

I think the ruler would be useful for more than a debugging tool. A lot of problems we see in this thread with folks concerned about what-fits-where is from a lack of understanding. If we had a tool to better understand why then its no longer mysterious Wogic. Its that, for example, the pelt doesn't fit there because it has these measurements and volume. Then, of course the argument changes from "why doesn't this fit" to "the dimensions for a pelt are unrealistic". I would prefer the latter.

 

You use the rule to measure the onion.

The onion consumes 0.125 L

The onion is about 15cm wide, 15cm deep, 30cm high.

 

You use the ruler to measure the Large chest.

The large chest consumes 525.01 L

The large chest is about 1.5m wide, 0.5m deep, 1m high.

The large chest can hold up to  525 L

The large chest can hold objects with no single measurement in excess of 1.5m

It looks like you can put any sold object in the large chest.

 

You use the ruler to measure the bulk storage bin.

The bulk storage bin consumes 16000.01 L

The bulk storage bin is about 2m wide, 2m deep, 2m high.

The bulk storage bin can hold up to 16000 L.

It looks like you can put bulk type items in the bulk storage bin.

 

You use the ruler to measure the Armour stand.

blah blah blah consumes L.

blah blah blah is about these dimensions.

blah blah blah holds L.

blah blah blah single max internal dimension.

It looks like you can only put armor or clothing in the armour stand.

[ErikN 452]

Yes I meant the oven's container volume, the cauldron is is bigger then the ovens container in 2 out of 3 dimensions so it won't fit.

In order for any item to fit within any container it must pass both the size checks and the volume check, in some cases it makes little sense, since if it had been in real life you could have rotated the item around and made it fit, but in wurm the width is checked against the width of the container and so on, so if one fails the entire check fails. 

Well the debugging side of things with rulers was just my first thought when I read your suggestion, it could as you say also give players more understanding of why something don't fit.

 

The biggest problem from my perspective with items and sizes is actually the items that can be combined, they can often scale in rather odd ways when combining them together.

 

[BrokenSanity 717]

Meditation: SoTG is becoming a necessity for PvP, and it will only get worse as more people get it. 50% permanent damage reduction is above and beyond any other ability. Pretty much all the recent account "WTB"s have been for SoTG accounts only, because without it you can't hope to be a top PvP account.

There need to be more viable late game choices for players, instead of forcing PvPers along one path.

Either by increasing other path's abilities (e.g. swapping Hate's temp damage buff with the spell invulnerability - making the damage permanent and the spell invulnerability temporary. I'm sure there are other possible changes for the other paths too.) or by reducing the damage reduction from SoTG or changing how it works.

The idea that getting 70 meditating (which isn't *that* hard) should instantly give a better bonus than grinding up to 70+ body is laughable.

Edited July 22, 2015 by BrokenSanity

[Nicrolis 980]

I liked the idea of having SotG on a CD like hates damage.

[2015_GOMEO 63]

1. the ability to transport animals via boat. so maybe, make a cage that can be built, that can store a living creature in it, that can be loaded into a boat/wagon? and the amount of cages would be the same size as large crates?

2. skill gain on epic is suppose to be faster, but at higher lvls of skill gain, its slower then freedom. how about fixing the skill gain to increase based off the actual skill, not the effective?

3. allow unicorns to swim in water?

4. allow horseshoes or a type of shoe for other creatures such as unicorns to have, so they can go faster.

5. allow the mail system to be able to send mail to other kingdoms. ( you already can, just make it official and take off the "cant send to enemy kingdom message")

6. fix memory leak issues in the client.

7. fix desync issues weither on land or on boat. its game changing in pvp.

8. more to come....

[joedobo 1,187]

1. linear sum of volumes and just keep the single max size. why? because,  You can stack 2x4xlength in a pickup truck bed until the bed is full. The max length didn't change and the available space or volume in the bed went down proportionally as more boards were put in. I get that the equivalent combined bundle of boards in the bed have a height and depth that change as more boards are put in. The important value here is the length, the single largest dimension. I like this one the best. Its not the most realistic but it is simple.

 

2. use a simplified circle or sphere formula for combined items to calculate largest measurement. Use the volume as the additional area added to the circle/sphere. I don't have the math skills to explain this well. The sphere idea is pretty close to what would really happen with say clay. Continue to linear sum volumes. Since the actual measurements don't equate to the volume, you'd need to use come kind of scale to increase dimensions. um...complicated.

 

For combined items the ruler information text wouldn't work well. Its like your thinking, "how do I scale up these values so they make sense". Probably limit the ruler so it only tells the the largest dimension.

 

 

Anyway, ErikN, Thank you very much of replying and taking the time to explain about what-fits-where. I think I have at least planted a seed in your mind about the ruler. 

[Zekezor 3,188]

The idea that getting 70 meditating (which isn't *that* hard) should instantly give a better bonus than grinding up to 70+ body is laughable.

the bonus scales with your body stats, dont forget that.

 

20 body + sotg = 40 body....

35 body + sotg = 70 body...

70 body + sotg = 140... :|

 

It's a ridicilous bonus...

 

Not to mention it has a built-in self-only lvl 11 love path effect... sorry, that was inaccurate. it has a built-in self-only twice as powerfull lvl 11 love path effect.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Zekezor

[Lordterrabyte 139]

I know its not a game breaker but I'd like to see pillars be able to be used in buildings currently they cant be and seeing they are an architectural item I really think we should be able to build them anywhere. I mean cathedrals and stuff with high ceilings would really look great with them inside, also loading them in a wagon would be good too as much for convenience in placing them as scavenging/salvaging (up to you which one suits) which is a way areas get tidied up as much as decay quite often when deeds disband even if people don't want to reuse the items you often find them dumped in mines or whatever to get them out of sight.

[Skyfalls 13]

My post is about a couple of actual balance issues

 

1.Ships-needs rebalancing-every ship needs something that makes people want to own it-not the current standard of "this ship is the best and all others suck"-there needs to be a reason shipbuilders will build them other than for just skill to get to the one everyone wants

 

2.Wood types-really the same as with ships-people need a reason to build things out of different materials other than what is currently available

 

In general just these two things being addressed would help the economy if nothing else but putting a stop to the people who stick their noses in the air at the mere mention of a ship that is not a Knarr or a tool made out of something not oak:)

[Neroden 60]

• Arched Walls should be reduced to 10 instead of 20 Planks/Bricks/Mortar

Floorboards should be reduced to 10 planks to align with regular floors

A way to deal with Marsh other than floor boarding over it then destroying the floor boards to turn it to dirt would open up a lot of currently useless coastline

A way/tool/process to deal with rock/clay/marsh that is too deep would be great

[Bittereinder 265]

• Longbows should be mailable; right now, they cannot be mailed.