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Tamorlane

Change is Coming

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Or perhaps we start looking at it as if we have a game that allows for two unique player communities to exist in relative harmony.  Minus the code bleed that often creates issues for one side or the other.  We can argue about whether the egg or the chicken came first, but that just wastes the time we could spend on productive things doesn't it?

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are we ever going to get better code separation somehow? so for example we dont need to have slow guards on pve servers cause its bad for pvp

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this would be a great way to get changes done that will screw up pve even more,without most people knowing why those changes happen.

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are we ever going to get better code separation somehow? so for example we dont need to have slow guards on pve servers cause its bad for pvp

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Or perhaps we start looking at it as if we have a game that allows for two unique player communities to exist in relative harmony.  Minus the code bleed that often creates issues for one side or the other.  We can argue about whether the egg or the chicken came first, but that just wastes the time we could spend on productive things doesn't it?

Edited by geode
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I would also like to ask about patch notes being more detailed.


 


If you look @ any on-line game any changes are described with as much detail as possible.


 


Wurm is a very high grinded game so waiting 2 weeks before you know what is what after max testing is a little annoying


 


E.G. the new priests. player has to convert to that religion then pray for 1-2 weeks before becoming a priest to find out the spell list is good/bad its alot of time put into a game for Risk or reward.


 


Another is the Reinforced walls - Players did not know that Disintegrate was an intended to destroy them or not. 


 


this way players can report something if its not working as intended or not atm we have no idea.


 


any feedback on this tamorlane would be much appreciated thanks.


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I hope this doesn't mean PvP gets forced on Freedom. I play this game because it is relaxing, if I have to worry about getting killed by a player or have to turn my deed into a fortress I am out.


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I hope this doesn't mean PvP gets forced on Freedom. I play this game because it is relaxing, if I have to worry about getting killed by a player or have to turn my deed into a fortress I am out.

he is not saying that at all....

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I hope this doesn't mean PvP gets forced on Freedom. I play this game because it is relaxing, if I have to worry about getting killed by a player or have to turn my deed into a fortress I am out.

 

Nope.  that's not what they mean and that will not happen.

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It's pretty hard to keep ourselves safe via permission management in a game where nothing is documented by the people in charge. You never know whether you've set a permission according to what you want to accomplish or not since you can only assume you know what the settings do based on hearsay (the wiki) or own personal experience. The wiki is often wrong or incomplete and personal experience usually means you've already been through exactly what you wanted to avoid. Sometimes one of the devs suddenly pops in to change the safety management entirely - One day your deed and mine is perfectly safe and the next they're not, even though you've tried everything you possibly can to keep them safe. I hope this will be taken into account when handling support calls.


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It sounds like to me they are not going to help get items back that are lost due to player error like forgetting to lock a boat or forgetting to change back a setting.  We will not know until they get into what is going to change more and the new polices.


 


I just hope they give us the new permission system and let us get the bugs worked out of that before making any changes. 


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Nope.  that's not what they mean and that will not happen.

 

This and all other comments to this effect.  Obviously CCAB retains all rights to this particular IP and at any given moment can decide what path we take.  But if you were around for the resoundingly acclaimed (!) opening of the home servers to PvP, and the brutal and direct fallout that ensued that led to Independence and a renewed focus on the PvE player experience, you should recognize that the developer knows there are two factions here, and that they both have merit.  The future is not ours to know of course, but I have the utmost faith that every stakeholder will have a seat at that particular table.

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They are giving griefers full reign and putting it almost solely on the community's head to keep our wurm safe.   The actual rule following percentage of the player base now is slim, very slim, we fight and fight against bullies and griefing.   And for years the griefers have won, no matter how pretty they want to talk up the resolutions (or lack thereof) from the past.  They are just taking the formality out of it so they aren't help liable.

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It's pretty hard to keep ourselves safe via permission management in a game where nothing is documented by the people in charge. You never know whether you've set a permission according to what you want to accomplish or not since you can only assume you know what the settings do based on hearsay (the wiki) or own personal experience. The wiki is often wrong or incomplete and personal experience usually means you've already been through exactly what you wanted to avoid. Sometimes one of the devs suddenly pops in to change the safety management entirely - One day your deed and mine is perfectly safe and the next they're not, even though you've tried everything you possibly can to keep them safe. I hope this will be taken into account when handling support calls.

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History repeats itself.


Edited by Dairuka
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So PvP and PvE can play together? No they can not do so well. That is a constant in ever online game I have experienced so far over 15 years of online gaming. Only those that are are willing to partake of both styles can accomplish what you seek. It's all about how they see the game. Players like me that will never PvP will also never see the game as a Player who pvp's would, and I have very solid reasons why I won't PvP. The new rules your new Team may write and enforce may in fact be considered by me to be very biased. That's just how it is. The only way to achieve your goal is require Players to do both PvP and PvE or leave Wurm for another game. Perhaps this is what you really hint at.

 

Those who occasionally seek to kill their neighbor can not "exist in relative harmony" with those who refuse to kill their neighbor, even in a game.

 

Your comments and intentions are noted. I am curious to see what you really intend and I hold any further comments until then. I will endeavor to obey the rules as they change.

This post just makes me sad, geode.

 

So you're saying that there's no way someone who likes the sporting aspect of PvP can live in harmony with players who enjoy PvE? I'm sorry, but you are quite mistaken and your attitude is disturbingly counterproductive. You are right that some players seem to share particular traits that make them mutually exclusive, but that's on both sides of this debate. What really needs to stop happening is the constant bad-mouthing and spreading of false information that I have seen from both sides of the fence. In fact, the attitude you describe in your post is more often found in the PvE environment than the PvP one, because on Chaos there are consequences for your actions that cannot happen on Freedom. People who refuse to "play well with others" have been pushed off the server before, because once you lose your kingdom and have exhausted all other kingdoms, you have no way to really survive. 

 

It also isn't "kill their neighbor". This isn't unfettered slaughter on Chaos. It's Kingdom vs Kingdom warfare. You don't step out of your house to insta-death. Raids happen, but they're not quick and they take planning and time to execute. I mean just look at the battles here: http://wild001.game.wurmonline.com/battles/?C=M;O=D That's a log of all the deaths with anyone over 20 fight skill, if I recall correctly. There's also a number of PvP players that have Freedom deeds for various reasons. For me, it's the freedom to have a deed that I don't have to defend. That doesn't make me opposed to having to defend a deed, I enjoy both styles of game play.

 

Basically, please consider your post and your attitude. From my perspective, you're making general accusations and assumptions that you cannot defend. This isn't about choosing a side, this is about finding the best way to make it all work together.

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This post just makes me sad, geode.

 

. People who refuse to "play well with others" have been pushed off the server before, because once you lose your kingdom and have exhausted all other kingdoms, you have no way to really survive. 

 

 

Interesting logic, I dont play WURM like you, I dont look like you, I dont share the same interests as you, Im not the same age as you, I dont like the same colors as you, therefore I dont  play well with others like you.

 

Sounds like you should maybe take some of your own advice, lets see what was it?...oh yes

 

 

 

Basically, please consider your post and your attitude. From my perspective, you're making general accusations and assumptions that you cannot defend. This isn't about choosing a side, this is about finding the best way to make it all work together.

 

Personally I reserve the right to not like or not be liked by anyone without consequence and play WURM as i like.

Edited by sunsvortex
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To balance cost effectively, the game needs to remove things which tax the budget. Spending X hours on balancing everything and making sure it's fair is expensive. By removing the unnecessary stuff it'll greatly increase the pace of development. Basically it needs to cut down on the number of things which need to be controlled. Someone (preferably outside of the company) needs to come in and essentially streamline it to keep costs down.


 


Probably another thing the game can do is shutdown Chaos and Epic. The challenge server is more than enough PvP for the players and it's refreshed (wiped), resulting in fairer PvP. The current FFA PvP persistent servers are obsolete in modern FFA PVP design. They have huge power disparity and griefing resulting from not ever being wiped. And the long progression times are unpopular. Most PvP players, unlike PvE players, do not like long progression times because to be competitive in the PvP envrionment a player must reach high amounts of skill (or level in other games).


 


I believe that removing Chaos/Epic will also unify the population, at least partialy. The reason? The PvP players will have to play on the PvE servers if they want a permanent home. The PvP server would be wiped, so it can't be permanent. If a player has a stake in the PvE community, they're less likely to create division or infighting. Currently, PvP players can exist solely on the PvP servers. AS a result, they don't have a stake in the PvE community.


Edited by Lightonfoot

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To balance cost effectively, the game needs to remove things which tax the budget.

 

Well this is certainly an interesting volley.  But again only Code Club AB can actually determine what those things actually are.  I am no Nostradamus of course. 

 

I actually run businesses in real life.  If I have an operating division in one of my companies that consistently loses money without giving me any other value adds we of course do the logical thing. I certainly don't know the intimate details anymore than any of you do, but if Chaos or Epic or Release was costing more to host than it made in subs, I would expect the company to cut the losses and move on.  It is at the end a business.  The fact that all of these particular game spaces are still here is a testament to their validity.  One cannot be better than another if they both serve to support the thing we all love.  One of the most unique elements of Wurm is that it can be so dramatically different to each player.  I'd hate to lose that. A lot of us would.

 

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As a burnt out librarian, that used to read 100s of books every year, I must say here that I can't particiate in this topic as I have issues with the Readability of the first post.

 

From wiki: 

Readability is the ease with which a written text can be understood by a reader. The readability of a particular text depends both on its content (for example, the complexity of its vocabulary and syntax) and on its typography (for example, its font sizeline height, and line length).



Hopefully that will also change!
 

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To balance cost effectively, the game needs to remove things which tax the budget. Spending X hours on balancing everything and making sure it's fair is expensive. By removing the unnecessary stuff it'll greatly increase the pace of development. Basically it needs to cut down on the number of things which need to be controlled. Someone (preferably outside of the company) needs to come in and essentially streamline it to keep costs down.

 

Probably another thing the game can do is shutdown Chaos and Epic. The challenge server is more than enough PvP for the players and it's refreshed (wiped), resulting in fairer PvP. The current FFA PvP persistent servers are obsolete in modern FFA PVP design. They have huge power disparity and griefing resulting from not ever being wiped. And the long progression times are unpopular. Most PvP players, unlike PvE players, do not like long progression times because to be competitive in the PvP envrionment a player must reach high amounts of skill (or level in other games).

 

I believe that removing Chaos/Epic will also unify the population, at least partialy. The reason? The PvP players will have to play on the PvE servers if they want a permanent home. The PvP server would be wiped, so it can't be permanent. If a player has a stake in the PvE community, they're less likely to create division or infighting. Currently, PvP players can exist solely on the PvP servers. AS a result, they don't have a stake in the PvE community.

 

You might want to actually do some research into why people choose Chaos or Epic over Freedom for their homes before you get quick with deciding on what should be culled. I've heard people say that Xanadu should be killed off and the population spread back over the old servers. How would you feel about that? What you're saying is that my desired play style on Chaos is not valid because you don't play that way, which is a rather one-sided view. I move between the servers, but there are a number of people who don't - a number of people make their homes on Chaos - and those people, often paying customers with many accounts and the large deed upkeeps that go with living on Chaos - would probably just leave the game, costing it more money.

 

That's another thing you don't seem to be considering: Running a village on Chaos isn't cheap.

 

You can't judge how much money a server makes just by the number of people logged in. There's the fact that Chaos deeds must dedicate a decent amount of land to defenses alone - so they are inherently larger than Freedom deeds of the same "usable" space. A lot of money flows through Chaos - a lot of money finds an end-point there. That money - the silver and gold - all start from a real world money transaction somewhere, don't they?

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Probably another thing the game can do is shutdown Chaos and Epic. The challenge server is more than enough PvP for the players and it's refreshed (wiped), resulting in fairer PvP. The current FFA PvP persistent servers are obsolete in modern FFA PVP design. They have huge power disparity and griefing resulting from not ever being wiped. And the long progression times are unpopular. Most PvP players, unlike PvE players, do not like long progression times because to be competitive in the PvP envrionment a player must reach high amounts of skill (or level in other games).

 

I believe that removing Chaos/Epic will also unify the population, at least partialy. The reason? The PvP players will have to play on the PvE servers if they want a permanent home. The PvP server would be wiped, so it can't be permanent. If a player has a stake in the PvE community, they're less likely to create division or infighting. Currently, PvP players can exist solely on the PvP servers. AS a result, they don't have a stake in the PvE community.

 

 I'm not sure if you've actually bothered to play on Chaos before jumping to conclusions or not.   First, both on Chaos, and as far as I know, on Epic the pvp is far from a "Free for all"   It's split between distinct communities of players that work together within their PMKs to destroy other PMKs, or in some cases set kingdoms.    

 

This is far from Obsolete, an is in fact the norm in every sandbox game I've played, even the ones that have full loot PvP like Wurm's.    If you want to support your conclusion with examples, I can cite my own from I"m betting far more sandbox games.   I beta test almost every new one that comes out if is has anything remotely like Wurm's type of environment.  

 

Chaos and Freedom have many players that do already coexist, and the numbers of players that like the way things work now far outnumber players that want both communities separate.  That is a simple fact, and you can look over dozens of polls and topic and look at the debates yourself. Every poll to axe Chaos has failed, every time players try to form a lynce mob to go after the "dirty PvPers" it always crashes and burns when it hits the reality of how players interact and enjoy the entire cluster as one community overall seeps into the debate.    

 

 Yesterday I attended Fight Club, and there were players from Chaos, from all the kingdoms there enjoying themselves with Freedom players.    The last imp-along I attended on Freedom I had a blast, and volunteered my time to help with it.    Freedom gives players from Chaos a chance to blow some steam off and enjoy events with the rest of the community.   I'ts the one reason I prefer Chaos over Epic.    I've played on Chaos the majority of my time in wurm and my home is there, however I have lots of friends on Freedom, both ex-MR and many others, some that I even fight against when I'm on Chaos.     

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You make it sound like Chaos has no PvP-exclusive content that has no practical use in PvP other than to sell to PvE for funding kingdoms..............................  Before I go on, no, I don't think PvP should be removed or be given inferior treatment opposed to PvE..... BUT.... 


 


....there are plenty of nerfs that PvE only suffers due to the existence of PvP *points at titles in signature, slow guards, worthless templars, PvE-useless traits in AH, idea to recall bugged templars to token shot down, etc..*, and suggestion threads for certain pieces of PvE content have been blatantly trolled and derailed (despite forums' rules supposedly disallowing that) for the sole purpose of maintaining PvP "exclusivity".


 


That's where not only is a code split needed, but also Rolf losing that attitude that points to PvE being second class citizens.  Xanadu's still eating lag, our feedback about Xanadu being excessively packed with mountains and cliffs was boredly swept aside, and more than a few trolls rampantly ran those threads basically (and often literally) saying "Quit your crying and whining" with moderators shining for their absence.   Switch to Elevation's reset, 3 handcarved maps, suddenly it's not "crying and whining" but "valuable feedback" and any Freedomer storming that thread using the exact same crap we deal with is instantly "a troll".


 


Inb4: "Freedom had x and y new decorations added!!!"   So did PvP, doesn't work the other way around, that said.


Inb4: "We get nerfs on PvP"  TRUST ME, on Freedom, we KNOW.


Inb4: "Just because you don't PvP doesn't make my play style invalid!!"    RIGHT BACK AT YOU


 


So many features missing or incomplete ffs.....   If I could score 2 wolves irl, rest assured once tame and relaxed around me, momma wolf would NOT chew her offspring up the second I gave it a treat.


 


Not a shot at PvP, more of a recount of why the "harmony among communities" ain't there (I REALLY hope the harmony referred to PvP and PvE, not legit players and douchebags).  And truth be told, I don't blame the PvP community (save a few individuals who seem to have Rolf's ear for some reason or another that must make his accountant cry at night), I blame a certain stubborn Swede who doesn't seem to care much for oh what... 3/4... 4/5 of his playerbase?


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(Edit: first part of post deleted as I thought it pointless)


 


Advance notice of changes coming, even if quite cryptic like this, are much welcomed.  Keep this coming and try to be more direct about it.  I much prefer you lay it on the table, rather than giving us some hints or clues as to what might happen.


 


Think of it like a tool tip.  "using this setting might help performance"... not entirely useful info.  Telling us "sort of", "might" or "it is possible" isn't really telling us much. It is "sort of" better than nothing and it "might" help us prepare for changes coming.


 


So, just say it: Is PvP and PvE getting a code split?  Is PvP going to start polluting PvE servers?  What exactly is in the works, so I can decide if I am staying in wurm or selling the rest of my accounts.


 


Thank you!


Edited by Wurmhole
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