Y.A.R.T. (Yet another religion thread)

[Gaeron 551]

I know its not a thread but a poll......

 

We keep getting these requests to add this, remove that, spread the other and it almost ALWAYS incorporates the battle of the religions in the forums. AFAIK the only thing that was universally agreed on was locate soul for Libila. Anyway, its clear, for me at least, that the current system has too many shortcomings, the lore (cough) and the framework in which religion has been implemented has been found to be lacking.

 

Rather than try and go into detail about what a religion 2.0 might be which would take too long and soon bog down on technicalities and drag from the old system I'd rather see what people think about it at the high level, the framework in which religion would be implemented, hence the poll.

 

The options :

 

Leave it alone - keep the current system

Self explanatory, we keep modding/patching what we already have until it either breaks or gets a lot better.

 

3 WL and 3 BL gods, spread the BL spells

3 into 1 does not go. We've seen it here quite clearly as soon as something changes the Libila priests end up falling behind or being too strong. In this scenario only Libila is affected and her spells spread across two other gods to make equivalent but still different priests compared to the WL ones. This way changes can be to one or other of the BL priests and not have such a big impact.

 

Any god for any kingdom, Total player choice

In this one the kingdom restraints on which priesthood to follow are lifted and it becomes purely player choice. The four priests are kept unique and the necessity for kingdom balance when making religion changes is removed.

 

None - take it out

Another self explanatory one. Some might feel that magic in any form is too much or wrong for Wurm and its removal might be a good thing.

 

Other

There are many other possible frameworks for religion, if you have one you think is a good fit for Wurm then post it.

 

Remember, the aim of this poll is more to get a discussion about what religion in Wurm is about rather than details.

 

[khatanka 317]

Ok, current system is broken and unbalanced, because one group is crying and rolf change for his friends

Maybe on time was better, remove priest from wurm or come back to the good old system

[Propheteer 7,139]

Ok, current system is broken and unbalanced, because one group is crying and rolf change for his friends

Maybe on time was better, remove priest from wurm or come back to the good old system

 

its always been broken and unbalanced lol

[KanePT 699]

I think a big ass overhaul of the whole system is required, specially since with all the band-aid patch, its getting to be a bit much.

With removing the archery restrictions, you might say that the imbalance was reduced in one end, but exacerbated in others (And really? Now? After i already have all my priests at 21 BC, do you have any idea how much time i spent training FS and doing carp on my Vyn?? ).

 

There's the whole playability with Priests. Most new players won't touch a priest with a the tip of their spears, because basically its too dependent on others, Priests can't gear up, can't build up, they can't do anything but pray. Which makes it undesirable. In a game with already low player retention, it makes no sense to create such restrictions which only cause people to quit in frustration because they usually play priest/mage characters in other games, but they can't here, because its restrictive as hell (and yes i know some cases of this, my current vyn priest used to be the main char of a friend in such conditions that, although he played with me, quit because he would be so restricted).

 

There's also the alchemy restrictions that really make no sense. And you end up restricting the creation of healing covers to the only priest that really DOESN'T NEED THEM, cause he can heal with magic.

 

basically there's too much stuff that doesn't make sense, and too much imbalance, specially in a game that wants to focus so much in PvP.

[Radni 1,089]

Wtf? Keep it as is.

[Kagrenac 812]

How would you even have 3 lib priests without them being carbon copies of wl ones.

[watkins141 994]

plz just ascend nathan, 1 WL god and 1 BL god

[Gaeron 551]

How would you even have 3 lib priests without them being carbon copies of wl ones.

Who knows? As I said in the OP that would be a different conversation.

 

The current 3:1 has problems as we have all clearly seen, a 3:3 has a better chance of being balanced, heck it could even be 2:2. or if Nathan has his way a 1:1 

[Fawkes 1,567]

Keep it as is. Making it 3:3, allowing all kingdoms to use all gods, or removing religion entirely would just serve to make everyone a carbon copy of each other. I'd rather have a system where people are somewhat unique and have to figure out how to use the tools they're given, even if it does require a bit more effort to keep it balanced. Anything else would just turn PvP into an even bigger numbers game than it is.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Fawkes

[Gaeron 551]

Keep it as is. Making it 3:3, allowing all kingdoms to use all gods, or removing religion entirely would just serve to make everyone a carbon copy of each other. I'd rather have a system where people are somewhat unique and have to figure out how to use the tools they're given, even if it does require a bit more effort to keep it balanced. Anything else would just turn PvP into an even bigger numbers game than it is.

I'm curious, where is this unique you speak of?

 

If you are BL then every priest is the same, if MR then mostly mag because thats the only one they can champ, if JK then its Vyn or Fo if intending to champ and usually mag if not. The only uniqueness is at the kingdom level. otherwise its about as cookie cutter as you can get. As for the numbers thing, in Wurm its always been a big thing, more variation actually reduces it rather than increases it.

 

The problem with the 3:1 system is that if you make a change to one of the Three then for "balance" there is demands that the One be updated too. But then the other two of the Three need to be updated for them to balance the One again which means now the Three have more than the One so it has to be update again. Its a never ending cycle that realistically cannot be balanced as the One has to be effective to be playable.

 

If you were to combine the powers of the Three into the One then the powers of the One would have to be diluted until it balances against the Three. As the powers have been diluted players using the One become totally dissatisfied because in a single spell like for like they are worse even though they have a wider spread of spells. Players of the One want the like for like spells to be comparable but they also need the greater spread of spells because they have no choice in which god to follow. 

 

Every time a change is made without the above in mind the imbalances grow, unfortunately almost all player suggestions don't have this in mind so it makes Rolf's job a damned sight harder.

[Kagrenac 812]

I'm curious, where is this unique you speak of?

 

If you are BL then every priest is the same, if MR then mostly mag because thats the only one they can champ, if JK then its Vyn or Fo if intending to champ and usually mag if not. The only uniqueness is at the kingdom level. otherwise its about as cookie cutter as you can get. As for the numbers thing, in Wurm its always been a big thing, more variation actually reduces it rather than increases it.

Chaos is not epic, epic really seems to have a better handle on how to use each type of priest (aka why there is more variety in the wl kingdoms)

 

Not sure how every priest having a unique set of spells(with a couple copied/reskinned) is cookie cutter,

[Argustin 249]

Chaos is not epic, epic really seems to have a better handle on how to use each type of priest (aka why there is more variety in the wl kingdoms)

 

Not sure how every priest having a unique set of spells(with a couple copied/reskinned) is cookie cutter,

I think this comes from the fact that BL-ers on Epic knows how to use their priests. On Chaos tho.... well look at suggestions. And i think that 1 god (yes BL cannot choose any other) should not be as good as 3. Choose your ground and stay with it. All kingdoms have alt priests for enchants anyway, so will leave it out of here.

Overall i think, the system is not perfect and might be changed a little bit, but i don´t find it sooooo broken that it needs to be worked no scratch... well not now atleast. Maybe in future.

[Ayes 3,715]

Leave it alone, sort of, almost. It is a complicated system with various interactions and restrictions; therefore, I think that the basic outlines of it are fine and unique to this game with their specialized refinements. This is not to say that it can not be tweaked in certain respects as per player input that seems sensible and coded without much difficulty. So this is where sort of and almost apply.

 

=Ayes=

[Cista 428]

Damn, I am a quite high-level priest, and I have no idea what is the point of this thread. Try to explain yourself a bit maybe if you want a more inclusive discussion

Or, if you are only concerned with PvP, say so in the OP.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Cista

[Lancelot 765]

I voted that we leave it be, any tinkering just seems to cause massive imbalance and confusion as to what diety has what powers and spells.

[Gaeron 551]

Damn, I am a quite high-level priest, and I have no idea what is the point of this thread. Try to explain yourself a bit maybe if you want a more inclusive discussion

Or, if you are only concerned with PvP, say so in the OP.

[Cista 428]

 

Its also not a PvP thing though a lot of recent posts have been PvP related

 

Well, in PVE the imbalance is not a problem IMO. What matters in PVE is money, and if you are not interested in exchanging services for money, then all that matters is what you have fun with doing, so you pick the priest that does the most interesting things for you or complements your village..

 

Re: exchanges of services for money, Vyn is seen as the most sought for priest, but as a consequence of this, everybody rolls Vyn. This means that the relatively few other priests are also sought after to do their services such as Genesis or the mailbox spell.

Supply and demand 

Edited September 9, 2014 by Cista

[KanePT 699]

Well, in PVE the imbalance is not a problem IMO. What matters in PVE is money, and if you are not interested in exchanging services for money, then all that matters is what you have fun with doing, so you pick the priest that does the most interesting things for you or complements your village..

 

Re: exchanges of services for money, Vyn is seen as the most sought for priest, but as a consequence of this, everybody rolls Vyn. This means that the relatively few other priests are also sought after to do their services such as Genesis or the mailbox spell.

Supply and demand 

Actually it IS imbalanced in PVE as well. By far Vynora is the most lucrative priest, which is why you'll easily see 2-3 vyn priests for each of the remaining 2. So even in that aspect its imbalanced. Mag is dead useful for miners, and has one nice weapon enchant (and AOSP, but that's shared with vyn, and i'm pretty sure that vyn's enchant is actually better cause it seems to do more damage to hell/lava critters, but that might be just me).

Fo is nice if you're into farming/animal husbandry, also handy for landscaping. They have LT which is nice, and courier is also pretty marketable, and now and then people will ask for genesis casts. But Fo is the defacto support priest, and in PvE outside of the recent Dragon slayings, Fo won't see much action...

Now vyn, vyn has it all, Mind transfer, AoSP, CoC, WoA, Weapon enchants... It has pretty much 2 marketable spells for each one of the other religions, and they can sell their spells without leaving the safety of their house. I don't think that vyn really needs to be nerfed, but rather that the other religions need a bit of a buff.

 

And of course there's all the inconsistencies with the remaining mechanics around priests that i've mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

And before i get accused of being prejudiced and whatnot, i have a priest of at least 70 faith of each WL religion, but since its more useful and lucrative, my Vyn is the one that has the best skills. Fo is pretty much neglected since the deed ratio thing (i was grinding AH on that priest, but the herd i had to be able to groom non-stop was too big for the ratio)

Edited September 9, 2014 by KanePT

[darthryan 588]

Any god for any kingdom. Then at least they can be considered on individual merit, instead of having to balance 3 gods with one.

[Torgrim 403]

For PvE it's fine as it is, but new spells are always welcome. sure it's not balanced but the priests are pretty unique and that adds to the fun. Vyn are boring but profitable, Fo can heal and explore, Mag can mine and fix mines. I don't see why that would need to change. You know what you are getting into when choosing to become a priest. 

 

PvP, no real opinion. But ok, being able to choose whatever priest independent of kingdom would be eaisest way out in terms of balance. I don't really like it though becuase it makes the game less interesting... 

[Ecrir 887]

Voted for any god for any kingdom as I feel religion should be separate from politics like that. It should also make balancing the priests easier. Right now I feel (as the owner of a Vynora priest) that they are unbalanced in PvE. I feel that Mag and Fo priests should at least have counterparts to WoA and CoC, just as how Lib was given a similar spell for balance reasons at one point. Those kinds of spells should belong to a core group of spells to which all priests have access in some kind of form.

[KanePT 699]

For PvE it's fine as it is, but new spells are always welcome. sure it's not balanced but the priests are pretty unique and that adds to the fun. Vyn are boring but profitable, Fo can heal and explore, Mag can mine and fix mines. I don't see why that would need to change. You know what you are getting into when choosing to become a priest. 

 

PvP, no real opinion. But ok, being able to choose whatever priest independent of kingdom would be eaisest way out in terms of balance. I don't really like it though becuase it makes the game less interesting... 

While i agree that they're fun as they are, and that Fo is by far the easiest priest to gain FS on, i'd rather see Fo and Mag gain a few more utility spells.

[geode 292]

My character on Xanadu isn't a follower yet and I don't have a priest alt. My character is new as of Xanadu's launch. No skills brought from another server, there was no way for me to check the traits of the horses and cows I gathered from the wild. This morning I finally got past 34 AH and then I went through and made a list of all my horses and cows with bad traits or Illness. After I made my list of how many needed Genesis or death I realized there was no way I was going to be able to afford saving the lot of them, not if I hired a player to bring their Priest to do the job. I culled nearly 3/4 of my horses and cows this morning because they either had bad traits or illness or both.... and all of it is due in a big part to the game involving Animal Husbandry being balanced with Priests and Genesis.

 

You can guess what my vote was.

Edited September 9, 2014 by geode

[Gaeron 551]

My character on Xanadu isn't a follower yet and I don't have a priest alt. My character is new as of Xanadu's launch. No skills brought from another server, there was no way for me to check the traits of the horses and cows I gathered from the wild. This morning I finally got past 34 AH and then I went through and made a list of all my horses and cows with bad traits or Illness. After I made my list of how many needed Genesis or death I realized there was no way I was going to be able to afford saving the lot of them, not if I hired a player to bring their Priest to do the job. I culled nearly 3/4 of my horses and cows this morning because they either had bad traits or illness or both.... and all of it is due in a big part to the game involving Animal Husbandry being balanced with Priests and Genesis.

 

You can guess what my vote was.

Its a side topic but your real problem was that your AH wasn't high enough to realise you needed to keep certain animals out of the breeding program. When the system was first introduced there were worries that genesis wasn't working properly and just making bad traits invisible. I did and I know others bred up some decent horses without using genesis. There were  plenty of culls on the way but it was entirely possible. 

 

Of course now we are confident in Genesis its way quicker to have a clean pool.

[geode 292]

Its a side topic but your real problem was that your AH wasn't high enough to realise you needed to keep certain animals out of the breeding program. When the system was first introduced there were worries that genesis wasn't working properly and just making bad traits invisible. I did and I know others bred up some decent horses without using genesis. There were  plenty of culls on the way but it was entirely possible. 

 

Of course now we are confident in Genesis its way quicker to have a clean pool.

 

I am now confident that Rolf has balanced AH around the use of Genesis to point that anyone like me that doesn't have a Priest is fighting against the game balance itself. I don't think Rolf should have ever let it go this far.

 

Yes my AH was too low. Yes I could not see that most of the horses were bad traited.... but my herd is only first generation, it's not like several generations of blind breeding has built up bad traits. One generation. If my herd was several generations old I would buy your argument. Too much reliance on Players using Genesis and setting the game balance according to that is what I see. The wild horses and Cows NOW are being generated by the game with more bad traits and potential for bad traits than what the game did a couple of years ago (I raised up a character with AH then so I do have a frame of reference.) I see my experience today directly related to how the Priest class has become more and more central to Wurm gameplay.

 

I do not like the direction the game is going with Priests. I want to see more restrictions to them, a drop in their population, and a reduction in game balance changes being made because of the Priest class. I voted to remove Priests, but if the game stopped being balanced so much around them and their influence reduced I will be happy with that as well.

Edited September 9, 2014 by geode