What is Wurm PVP?

[Object 281]

So as many of you have noticed either on epic or chaos or just on the forums in general there have been a lot of people talking about problems in Wurm pvp and I really think the core problems leads to what we actually define as pvp in Wurm.

 

Is it the direct act of killing another player?  Or is it more then that?

 

I believe Wurm pvp is much bigger then just the act of directly killing another player, I believe there are infrastructures in place to hinder or help the direct act of killing another player and I think the majority of pvp that exists is what I call indirect pvp.

 

If you build a donut house around your token house, indirect pvp, if you make a on deed mine to be able to mine hop from if your being raided, indirect pvp, if you build sets of plate, etc etc the list can go on and on.

 

It seems the main focus on improving pvp is on the direct pvp facets like revising armour and weapons to follow the rock, paper scissors philosophy, which I agree would help but what about the indirect pvp?  Do players want to see better more involved indirect pvp or do players want to see more straight up brawls?

 

I'm truly curious as to what the players think about this, personally if Wurm pvp was more focused on indirect pvp sure we might lose some of the hardcore pvpers that just want to shove their longswords up other players sheaths but I think it would attract a lot more freedomers over to epic/chaos.

 

Tell me what you think.

[Xor 684]

less things like mine-hopping

 

 

more brawls

 

 

less things like it being a pita to re-gear with decent equipment after a death

 

more brawls!

[Kagrenac 812]

less things like mine-hopping

 

 

more brawls

 

 

less things like it being a pita to re-gear with decent equipment after a death

 

more brawls!

so epic?

 

I really dont see any issues with the "indirect pvp", which is really called living on a pvp server.

I dont get how wurm could be more focused on indirect pvp, unless you just made everything take longer.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Kagrenac

[Xor 684]

so epic?

 

 Not epic... imo there shouldn't be, and shouldn't have ever been an epic in the first place.

[Alden 209]

Both areas should be improved if they can.

 

I guess it's also a matter of play style, some people prefer the excitement and risk of direct Pvp,

Others like myself are still freedomers at heart and enjoy some daily tedium.

 

Personally I think direct PvP is in greater need of fixing and tweaks, some recent changes like the stance buffs have already made a good start.

The problem with direct PvP as I see it from a still green perspective, is that feelings of agency and effectiveness can be very elusive.

You hop into a battle and hope that the numbers go your way, having a way to react and change things up according to the flow of the battle would go a long way to improving PvP.

 

Indirect PvP is an entirely different beast, and more or less a self regulating one.

The sandbox nature of Wurm leads to some interesting emergent gameplay, but there are still some issues.

From an Epic persective:

The map is too small; a smaller map can encourage direct PvP, as wurmians will bump into each other more often and need to fight over resources.

But it can also invalidate direct PvP; the defenders advantage of being on home territory is completely negated, when slain attackers can be back in the fight five minutes later.

It also makes strategies like Depth of Defense and logistics a non-issue, something that Wurms sandbox nature can actually model quite well if given the chance.

More so, it makes social and political warfare a non issue, unless someone is willing to drop their deed and move far away they cannot convert without then losing out on many hours of investment in their deed or risk having it stomped by their former kingdom.

[Thrrim 217]

PvP is all about timing, the fact you bumped into something accidentally, or coincidentally. You cannot do this however, if people are sat on their damned deeds all day everyday, which in the long run does not help.

 

The map is not good at all either, way too small, they can get away too quickly or can get backup too quickly. fixing valrei would encourage more pvp too

[Thrrim 217]

 Not epic... imo there shouldn't be, and shouldn't have ever been an epic in the first place.

 

Chaos is pay to win, simple as. Epic would have been a good idea if the map reset every so often, but hey that's not the players fault is it now? 

[Blazer 566]

Chaos is pay to win, simple as. Epic would have been a good idea if the map reset every so often, but hey that's not the players fault is it now? 

 

You don't even play on chaos and say its pay to win. I'm running with plate set and I'm fine.

[Redd 4,281]

Chaos is pay to win, simple as. Epic would have been a good idea if the map reset every so often, but hey that's not the players fault is it now? 

 

Pahaha. Chaos is pay to win? What are you even on about. Have you played Chaos? 

 

Chaos is a much more immersive game then Epic. Epic is about the rush and the random brawls which are just the same over and over, where as Chaos is a strategic, territorial warfare type of game play. Its more about the kingdom, the influence, the raiding, and yes, the PvP.

 

Chaos is a much more interesting game style (in my opinion), i played epic for the first two months and i just got bored because its the same stuff over and over, where as Chaos is always different and ever evolving and adapting. Wurm PvP in theory looks dull. But i can tell you its the most exhilarating "PvP" game ive ever played. I dont think ive ever played ANY other game which gave me the shakes or the adrenaline rush (i find in my old days of wurm i need more risk to get more of an adrenaline hit lol ).

Edited April 27, 2014 by Redd

[Willis 18]

Redd.. WORD!

[Derp 310]

I wouldn't be interested in pvp just for the sake of it. You don't need me to tell you that on its own it's quite boring. I wouldn't bother if everyone was running around in cloth just dying all the time with hundreds of deaths. The excitement and reward is in risking the loss of expensive stuff - or rather, the potential the steal the enemy's expensive stuff.

 

Otherwise people would go on the test server and fight all day if that was the case, right? The system itself kind of sucks, it's not mount and blade combat.

[Ayes 3,715]

Wurm pvp is structured as being a choice for those who wish to participate. Given this option more than 3/4 (check the logon screen and add the numbers up over a period of days at different times) of the players have shown that they prefer to choose the PvE option.

 

Anything to take away or diminish this choice is detrimental to those who prefer not to participate in pvp. With this in mind as the shown to be preference which draws the most players and produces by far the most income for the game, obtuse suggestions to find ways to workaround this preferred choice of the player base are obviously undesirable.

 

Those who wish to participate with pvp associated actions within the game have numerous options available to do so. They should remain within those environments to pursue those activities with others who are like minded in that respect. I would even go so far as to say that discussions concerning the pvp aspects of the game should be redirected to those sections of the forums where they apply, rather than in Town Square where 3/4 of the players have no interest in them.

 

Although stirring up conflict and trouble may be enjoyable for some of this minor portion pvp portion of the player base, those PvE players who have little interest in conflict with others would be well advised not to get embroiled in these diversions other than to state their own opinion and move on to their more peaceful pursuits.

 

=Ayes=

[belthize 438]

Although stirring up conflict and trouble may be enjoyable for some of this minor portion pvp portion of the player base, those PvE players who have little interest in conflict with others would be well advised not to get embroiled in these diversions other than to state their own opinion and move on to their more peaceful pursuits.

 

=Ayes=

 

For what it's worth there's as much contention in the 'I don't like the new lawn texture' thread that's now gone to 4 pages than many PvP threads.  I've played or at least set foot on every server (except celebration) there's more actual conflict at a personal level on the PvE servers than on the PvP servers since the PvP servers supply a release.

 

+1 to Redd's post.  Wild engenders what Wurm is really about more than most any other server IMO.  For me personally it's not currently interesting due to the age of the server but the vast majority of the current drama regarding enclosures etc is rather nicely solved on Wild.  I lived on Wild for a while,  what most would call PvP was something you had to go out for,  mostly it was just like Indy with less angst, people were necessarily respectful within each kingdom.    Human's will always be better at creating and enforcing rules than code because code can't figure out intent.  

 

I invested a lot of time and effort into Epic at launch but it's a very different game.  It's a lot less about territory and more about action which isn't really my thing.  There are folks that really enjoy it and there too you can live a fairly peaceful PvE life on the home servers with the option to invoke your own form of justice if need be.

Edited April 27, 2014 by belthize

[Battlepaw 585]

Pahaha. Chaos is pay to win? What are you even on about. Have you played Chaos? 

 

Chaos is a much more immersive game then Epic. Epic is about the rush and the random brawls which are just the same over and over, where as Chaos is a strategic, territorial warfare type of game play. Its more about the kingdom, the influence, the raiding, and yes, the PvP.

 

Chaos is a much more interesting game style (in my opinion), i played epic for the first two months and i just got bored because its the same stuff over and over, where as Chaos is always different and ever evolving and adapting. Wurm PvP in theory looks dull. But i can tell you its the most exhilarating "PvP" game ive ever played. I dont think ive ever played ANY other game which gave me the shakes or the adrenaline rush (i find in my old days of wurm i need more risk to get more of an adrenaline hit lol ).

 

Have to agree that Chaos is strategic and territorial, its like comparing a bar room brawl to a chess match, the styles are like night and day in comparison.  Epic perspective from what I've watch centers around that concept of "Direct" pvp in some ways much more than Chaos, simply because the distance doesn't allow direct pvp to be a major factor, until two sides make a strategic move, and form a war front, wherever may be under contest atm.   

 

I do have to disagree about Chaos not being pay to win.   There are many elements that are pay to win, everything from Farwalker amulets, Drake, to the buying and selling of accounts.   

 

Coming from someone who has just bought his first crafter, I have to say actually spending money on Wurm, in that one has made a massive difference, and much more than other Pay to WIn games, I've played.  I'm not sure what to make of that, but I do know one thing.  Money is king when it comes to the kind of long-term slug fests we have here on Chaos, both in the PvP area,  and the skill grind.    

 

Farwalkers, make a rather noticeable impact, and its more than just the fact players have payed for it, but the fact that they are only exchanged within tight circles, and very rarely on open auctions.  When they are, they go for nearly astronomical amounts.    

 

BoKs, Spyglasss, Drake, Scale, Deeds, Upkeep money, Shaker Orbs, the list goes on and on with things that players spend money on for Chaos.   So in many ways its impossible to say that it has no impact on the PvP, since investing in parts of that system is part of the game here.   

Edited April 27, 2014 by Battlepaw

[Xor 684]

All i'm saying is, there are currently 166 players online, scattered throughout 5 different pvp servers . . .

 

Imagine 166 players all on chaos

 

It would be like Indy, except . . .pvp \o/

[Bittereinder 265]

Farwalkers are more like pay to not lose than pay to win. You usually use it when trying to escape.

[Alec 728]

All i'm saying is, there are currently 166 players online, scattered throughout 5 different pvp servers . . .

 

Imagine 166 players all on chaos

 

It would be like Indy, except . . .pvp \o/

 

 

 

If it wasn't for Epic, I would have read on the forums that without scale/drake and a terrible high skilled toon(bought of course) you can not do PvP on your own or with other low skill player as yourself.

 

Then I would never had played Wurm

 

 

I never have found threads like this one about Chaos, and if it wasn't for threads like that one I would never had keep playing Wurm.

[Judicator 539]

All i'm saying is, there are currently 166 players online, scattered throughout 5 different pvp servers . . .

 

Imagine 166 players all on chaos

 

It would be like Indy, except . . .pvp \o/

 

No it wouldn't. Chaos is a broken disaster full of cheated accounts and items. It's unplayable for anyone wanting to be competitive.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Judicator

[Busted 289]

You got your pvp everywhere. It's not just about stabbing someone in the face on epic or chaos, it's how you deal with your neighbours, your market competitors, the overly cheerful guy in kchat who revels in handing out free advice nobody wants or the bragger who's entire focus is one upmanship. Freedom is far more active pvp wise than anywhere else because most actions and consequences of said actions are hidden in the shadows or discussed amongst close associates in private. Rules being exploited to cause annoyance which game mechanics support frustrate and anger much more than death at the end of a sword on chaos. It breeds resentments that last a lifetime and can have a knock on effect that damages economies, friendships, territorial claims all without a single overtly hostile action.

 

Freedom pvp exists. It's just a game of politics and midnight skulduggery rather than clashing swords and raising deeds. And then there's the forums. Just wow.

[Cerberus 247]

Why most of us former pvpers do not like wild? the community there.

[Xalorum 765]

chaos is like chess only if one side of chess has 20x the pieces of the other.

[Judicator 539]

chaos is like chess only if one side of chess has 20x the pieces of the other.

 

[LorenaMontana 3,008]

Not epic... imo there shouldn't be, and shouldn't have ever been an epic in the first place.

Imo U shouldnt never be here in the first place

[Battlepaw 585]

No it wouldn't. Chaos is a broken disaster full of cheated accounts and items. It's unplayable for anyone wanting to be competitive.

 

I don't know where you get that impression.  Yes there are a few accounts left floating around that were pre-fight fix, and there are many that have abused windows of opportunity, those accounts are in the minority.  I have complained about how frustrating it is for player like myself to catch up, but it is possible to be competitive, I've seen many players who like to work on PvP skills full time quickly get to the point where they can fight in reasonable amounts of time.   

 

However, there are many changes that have made massive gaps.  Changes such as the meditation skill change, that put a huge rift between players that didn't already have the useful abilities (especially in insanity) and ones who got enlightened before the changes went into effect.   This has been a disaster for players like me who are casual and don't have the time to constantly try to get meditation ticks.   

 

There are other ways to fight though, you don't necessarily have to have shield of the gone or, special abilities, or even farwalkers to actually enjoy pvp.  Archery is still very effective, even at low levels, a good archer can be devastating to enemy horses, which can make a serious difference in a fight, and even without shield of the gone, it is possible to survive.   

 

The main issues come during large pvp, where, your better off staying out of the way if you can't dish it out or take it.   In those large scale fight, stats, the ability to do massive damage in a few seconds because you have hate path, or absorb lots of damage if you have shield of the gone, or artifacts, along with powerful accounts can really make a difference.    More than anything however, things come down to how well the players work together and know their own limits, when to push and when to fall back, and when they are dangerously overextended.    These factors are often affected directly by the abilities of the players involved, but even more greatly by the teamwork.    

 

Chaos's unique PvP has a lot of potential, it has its problems, as I've mention about pay to win in my earlier post, and some of the things in this one, but despite what I think of those issues, I still stick around and I call it my home.  I've lived here for more than a few years now and I don't have any regrets or feel the need to move to Freedom or play on Epic.  Its enjoyable in its own unique way.    The "Indirect" PvP is a lot of fun, I enjoy the sieges and long term wars, and the often laid back pace of the server.  Each day is random, and a unique challenge.      

[Xalorum 765]

that may be true, if you have a large group of people around you who ARE skilled.  If you don't you don't really stand a chance.